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OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:25 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:Does the door listed weight say the same?
I believe the number on the door is how much weight the vehicle can carry as it is over 1000 pounds more then the measured weight

The actual weight of the SL Plus is about the same as both the Niro and Kona highline variants.

Also the Plus’s battery temp never wavered between a quarter way to the middle of the scale despite multiple quick charges a few hours apart and with aggressive uphill mountain driving at 70+ mph. It’s temperature profile did not follow the early 2018 40kWh cars in any way.

Using assumptions from earlier versions of the LEAF don’t seem to applicable to the LR LEAF.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13472
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:27 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:That is a claim completely without supporting data. Try not to oversell so blatantly...
That's a response without any basis as well.
No. Noting that the battery you are making claims about is too new to be rated for durability or reliability is based on our present understanding of time and causality.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:15 pm

Yeah, maybe five years ago, but not today. There’s been a lot of learning that’s happened in the intervening years. And I’m not making any claims here, just telling it like it is.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13472
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:23 pm

OrientExpress wrote:Yeah, maybe five years ago, but not today. There’s been a lot of learning that’s happened in the intervening years. And I’m not making any claims here, just telling it like it is.
"Best of series battery durability"
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 2295
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:30 pm

OrientExpress wrote: Using assumptions from earlier versions of the LEAF don’t seem to applicable to the LR LEAF.
Really?

Many engineering design evaluations of the Leaf Plus would consider it as brute-force design attempt at achieving
a range goal without consideration of overall vehicle efficiency and with a minimum concern for battery degradation.
With the Leaf Plus, Nissan pushed the limits of its present battery technology by not using TMS, given the poor overall
vehicle efficiency, added weight, and limited quick charging frequency and rates (kW). As a result, the Leaf Plus basically
is a very limited BEV with a daily range marginally exceeding 200+ miles, i.e. not for major/lengthy intercity travel
without potentially affecting battery life. If the Leaf Plus is driven conservatively and limited at most to one quick
charge per day, it should provide fairly good utility.

It's unfortunate that the M3 lacks much of the appeal of the Nissan Leafs for some, and most importantly isn't being
delivered at a price competitive to the Leaf Plus, or less would consider the Leaf Plus for its range. Other BEVs,
are not readily available, or lack (the Bolt) the features/size of the Leaf Plus making it the only present 200+ mile range
alternate to the M3. It appears that those interested in the Leaf Plus either haven't owned an earlier Leaf or are unfamiliar
with the 24/30 kWh Leaf battery degradation issues, and solely focus on the 200+ mile range feature.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:22 pm

Really? Yes, Really. Every time I hear some self-proclaimed battery expert pontificating about the superiority of TMS I think "Gwad here comes grandpa and his wayback machine." Assumptions made eight years ago might have made sense then, things have moved on, and on for the better.

Building a great EV is not a monotheist effort, it is multidimensional coloboration, where many times multiple other needs compete with the engineering the best solution. But you know what, smart engineers take the challenge and make it better, faster, and cheaper. During that process the iterations sometimes works OK and sometimes they doesn't work as good as they could. But continuous improvement works to get the best solution that compliments all the considerations.

I'm very lucky that I get to talk to the real experts in industry and here about what is really going on, and I'm very encouraged.

Lastly, let me make an observation, Every time someone bashes earlier versions of the LEAF and uses them as proof of their arguments, all they do is show how they have failed to keep current in the state of the art. Staying up to speed on things is important, and not just blogs, but by reading professional technical journals on the subject. Almost all of them are free, and have some great stuff in them. The automotive traction battery and their systems are going through changes big time, and technology that might have been in production for only a year or two is now obsolete. And let's not forget that this business is not exactly a money maker right now in an industry that is going through an even bigger market transformation. Also let's not forget that the tip of the spear in this transformation is electromotive personal transportation.

It's exciting times for all of us.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13472
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:51 pm

Lastly, let me make an observation, Every time someone bashes earlier versions of the LEAF and uses them as proof of their arguments, all they do is show how they have failed to keep current in the state of the art.
Comparing the current Leaf packs to earlier ones with very similar designs makes more logical sense than claiming that the new packs are "Best of series battery durability" because the people you know in Nissan Corporate have told you that it is so. We have no idea how durable the current 40kwh and 62kwh packs are, and won't know for at least another several years. The evidence we do have right now is that there have been quite a few cell failures in the 40kwh packs (along with the 30kwh packs), and that some of them (like mine) are showing less than stellar retention of original capacity. These do not suggest "Best of series battery durability".
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BoulderLeaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:58 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2012
Leaf Number: 016651
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:52 pm

lorenfb wrote:Leaf Plus has more weight and is thus less efficient, which results in increased motor power which then results in higher battery current which then causes more battery heat I^2 X R. So will battery degradation be greater for the Plus?
Not necessarily. It all depends on R (the internal resistance of the battery), and from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably. Some proof of this may be in the fact that the maximum QC charge rate has been lifted to 100kW (again, I^2 R heating comes into play here). TMS isn't a perfect solution (as has been discussed here ad nauseum) and I believe that long term battery stability (both in degradation and thermal capacity) will be achieved without a TMS.

I'm actually quite hopeful for this battery, and the LEAF Plus in general. I'm curious what a summer's time does for battery degradation as the 40kWh suffered initial high losses (5+%?). If it looks good then we might be in the market for one as we test drove one recently and really liked it.
First LEAF: Blue 2012 SL, Delivered: 11/30/2012, Traded in: 8/31/2015
First bar lost: 8/14/2015 @ 29,450 miles

Second LEAF: Gunmetal 2015 SV w/QC, Delivered: 8/31/2015

Other car: Silver 2013 Volt

All powered by 10KW PV system

BoulderLeaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:58 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2012
Leaf Number: 016651
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:55 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Lastly, let me make an observation, Every time someone bashes earlier versions of the LEAF and uses them as proof of their arguments, all they do is show how they have failed to keep current in the state of the art.
Comparing the current Leaf packs to earlier ones with very similar designs makes more logical sense than claiming that the new packs are "Best of series battery durability" because the people you know in Nissan Corporate have told you that it is so. We have no idea how durable the current 40kwh and 62kwh packs are, and won't know for at least another several years. The evidence we do have right now is that there have been quite a few cell failures in the 40kwh packs (along with the 30kwh packs), and that some of them (like mine) are showing less than stellar retention of original capacity. These do not suggest "Best of series battery durability".
If I may ask, do you have a bounds on your 40kWh battery degradation?
First LEAF: Blue 2012 SL, Delivered: 11/30/2012, Traded in: 8/31/2015
First bar lost: 8/14/2015 @ 29,450 miles

Second LEAF: Gunmetal 2015 SV w/QC, Delivered: 8/31/2015

Other car: Silver 2013 Volt

All powered by 10KW PV system

BoulderLeaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:58 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2012
Leaf Number: 016651
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:00 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
lorenfb wrote:So the plus is a pig given its additional 22 kWhs, i.e. lbs/kWh.
Well, that is certainly one way of looking at it, but a more informed way is to look at the 2019 car is as the best of the LEAF Gen 1/Gen 2 series cars.

I say that because of the LEAF Plus excels in these factors:

Competitive Range with its competitors
Best of series NVH mitigation
Best of series battery durability
Fastest acceleration of the series
Best of series charging capability
Best value of series and with its competitors
Continuing with the best reliability of any BEV
A great lead-in BEV for Nissan's first purpose-built BEV platform
Comparable weight, size and capacity to other "late to the party" Asian competitors

Personally I would rather call the LEAF Plus the LEAF LR or the LEAF Heavy.
I've read references to an upcoming purpose built EV platform in a few places, and I think you are the source of this info. Do you have any more info here? Am I correct in understanding that this would be a 2021 MY?
First LEAF: Blue 2012 SL, Delivered: 11/30/2012, Traded in: 8/31/2015
First bar lost: 8/14/2015 @ 29,450 miles

Second LEAF: Gunmetal 2015 SV w/QC, Delivered: 8/31/2015

Other car: Silver 2013 Volt

All powered by 10KW PV system

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