LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13428
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:03 pm

If I may ask, do you have a bounds on your 40kWh battery degradation?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. If you are asking for current capacity, I'll be checking that on April 30th, the one year anniversary of me picking the car up. As of last November (?) it was about 94.5%.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BoulderLeaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:58 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2012
Leaf Number: 016651
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:08 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
If I may ask, do you have a bounds on your 40kWh battery degradation?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. If you are asking for current capacity, I'll be checking that on April 30th, the one year anniversary of me picking the car up. As of last November (?) it was about 94.5%.
Thanks, that's about what I was wondering - how much capacity you have lost so far (or what your current capacity is). I'm curious what your 1 year reading will be.
First LEAF: Blue 2012 SL, Delivered: 11/30/2012, Traded in: 8/31/2015
First bar lost: 8/14/2015 @ 29,450 miles

Second LEAF: Gunmetal 2015 SV w/QC, Delivered: 8/31/2015

Other car: Silver 2013 Volt

All powered by 10KW PV system

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:11 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: Comparing the current Leaf packs to earlier ones with very similar designs makes more logical sense than claiming that the new packs are "Best of series battery durability"
No grandpa, the evil Nissan told me so is not it.

It’s the best of the series because it’s also the last of the series.

The Next Nissan an Infinity BEVs will be built on a new BEV specific platform with a different type of traction battery and may very well also have an adoption of the current traction battery available as well for certain vehicles.

Btw There were new concepts shown at Shanghai that gave more insights into some of the types of vehicles that will be using the platform. INFINITI said they will intro the first production version early next year as MY21. These concepts platform underpinnings are what matters, and it is well along.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13428
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:35 pm

It’s the best of the series because it’s also the last of the series.
Interesting theory.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

golfcart
Posts: 446
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:19 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
It’s the best of the series because it’s also the last of the series.
Interesting theory.
I'd really like to see them do a high performance NISMO 10th anniversary Leaf to kick off the new platform. Dual motor AWD hatchback with a tuned suspension and responsive steering. My lease will be up in 2022, at which point I'll be longer be paying for daycare, so I'll just have to wait and see what's available.
2018 SV

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:35 am

I would think that Nissan versions of the new platform won't begin until at least 2021 after the Infiniti has been revealed.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

lorenfb
Posts: 2272
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:38 am

BoulderLeaf wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Leaf Plus has more weight and is thus less efficient, which results in increased motor power which then results in higher battery current which then causes more battery heat I^2 X R. So will battery degradation be greater for the Plus?
Not necessarily. It all depends on R (the internal resistance of the battery), and from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably.
Yes, it depends on the actual internal battery resistance data, and not guessing. Where're your data? It can be easily determined using
LeafSpy. A MNL member (DaveinOlyWA) did an actual test last year on his 2018 40 kWh Leaf and the internal resistance was actually a little
higher (~ .100 ohms - 100 mohms) than my 2013 Leaf. So without an improvement in battery resistance to offset the additional battery
current (I^2) required because of the added battery weight of the Leaf Plus, the average battery temperature will be higher and the
Leaf Plus will be less efficient. This then can have an effect of increasing battery degradation on the Leaf Plus.

Here's my 2013 Leaf Data:

11/20 -13,700 miles, 76 mohms per LeafDD, 20 Deg, 73% SOC
11/27 -13,800 miles, 67 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 63% SOC
11/30 - 13,900 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 71% SOC
12/2 - 14.100 miles, 55 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg, 67% SOC
12/16 - 14,500 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 15 deg, 93% SOC
12/27/14 - 14,800 miles, 103 mohms per LeafDD, 11 deg, 24% SOC
3/10 - 17,400 miles, 60 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 73% SOC
3/14 - 17, 550 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 32 deg, 47% SOC
4/14 - 19,100 miles, 59 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg. 38% SOC
5/4 - 19,989 miles, 64 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg. 48% SOC
5/15 - 20,400 miles, 73 mohms per LeafDD, 20 deg. 41% SOC
5/22 - 20,700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg. 50% SOC
12/10/15 - 28,000 miles, 90 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg. 92% SOC
4/5 - 32,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg, 55% SOC
5/16 - 33,700 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 47% SOC
5/16 - 33.700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 31 deg, 76% SOC
10/5 - 39,300 miles, 100 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 50% SOC
10/6 - 39,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 51% SOC
10/7 - 39,500 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 56% SOC
10/15 - 40,000 miles, 71 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 45% SOC
10/30 - 41,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 66% SOC
12/26/16 - 43,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 13 deg, 77% SOC
6/10/17 - 49,600 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg, 70% SOC
7/1/17 - 51,000 miles, 62 mohms per LeafDD, 33 deg, 44% SOC
8/15/17 - 53,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 35 deg, 57% SOC
4/2/18 - 62,100 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 18 deg, 94% SOC
6/13/18 - 65,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 52% SOC
8/13/18 - 67,000 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 91% SOC
9/14/18 - 68,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 57% SOC
10/30/18 - 70,000 miles, 93 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 84% SOC
11/9/18 - 70,000 miles, 104 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 89% SOC
11/30/18 - 70,400 miles, 88 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 88% SOC
12/6/18 - 70,800 miles, 116 mohms per LeadDD, 13 deg, 33% SOC
1/30/18 - 72,300 miles, 86 mohms, per LeadDD, 23 deg, 45% SOC

The above reporting needs to be done on the later Leaf batteries. I plan on doing similar tests on my 2019 40 kWh Leaf.
Again, where are these data you reference;
from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

BrockWI
Posts: 798
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:00 am

I know we have talked about this before but it makes no sense to me that if you double the battery capacity the resistance stays the same given the same load. I just keep thinking of a 12v lead acid trolling motor in a boat. Now you add a second battery, both batteries will be cooler and you get 110% longer run time becasue of the reducing loading on each cell. Why is this not the case in the Leaf packs?

I do understand pulling the extra weight of a larger pack will add some additional load, but again I can't image that added load would be more than the added benefit of the larger pack in general.

Another way to look at this, say you have a race with four Leaf's, a 24, 30, 40 and 62. They all go the exact same speed for 30 minutes, I would image the 24 pack would be the hottest as your pulling the highest C rate from that pack, then the 30, then the 40 and finally the coolest being the 62 with the lowest C pull. Is that totally wrong? Isn't this the same as why the larger packs can charge faster as well?
3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 200k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@90k miles - 54.71Ahr - 83.64SOH - 78.44Hx - 237GID

BoulderLeaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:58 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Nov 2012
Leaf Number: 016651
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:06 am

lorenfb wrote:
BoulderLeaf wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Leaf Plus has more weight and is thus less efficient, which results in increased motor power which then results in higher battery current which then causes more battery heat I^2 X R. So will battery degradation be greater for the Plus?
Not necessarily. It all depends on R (the internal resistance of the battery), and from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably.
Yes, it depends on the actual internal battery resistance data, and not guessing. Where're your data? It can be easily determined using
LeafSpy. A MNL member (DaveinOlyWA) did an actual test last year on his 2018 40 kWh Leaf and the internal resistance was actually a little
higher (~ .100 ohms - 100 mohms) than my 2013 Leaf. So without an improvement in battery resistance to offset the additional battery
current (I^2) required because of the added battery weight of the Leaf Plus, the average battery temperature will be higher and the
Leaf Plus will be less efficient. This then can have an effect of increasing battery degradation on the Leaf Plus.

Here's my 2013 Leaf Data:

11/20 -13,700 miles, 76 mohms per LeafDD, 20 Deg, 73% SOC
11/27 -13,800 miles, 67 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 63% SOC
11/30 - 13,900 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 71% SOC
12/2 - 14.100 miles, 55 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg, 67% SOC
12/16 - 14,500 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 15 deg, 93% SOC
12/27/14 - 14,800 miles, 103 mohms per LeafDD, 11 deg, 24% SOC
3/10 - 17,400 miles, 60 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 73% SOC
3/14 - 17, 550 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 32 deg, 47% SOC
4/14 - 19,100 miles, 59 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg. 38% SOC
5/4 - 19,989 miles, 64 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg. 48% SOC
5/15 - 20,400 miles, 73 mohms per LeafDD, 20 deg. 41% SOC
5/22 - 20,700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg. 50% SOC
12/10/15 - 28,000 miles, 90 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg. 92% SOC
4/5 - 32,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg, 55% SOC
5/16 - 33,700 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 47% SOC
5/16 - 33.700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 31 deg, 76% SOC
10/5 - 39,300 miles, 100 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 50% SOC
10/6 - 39,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 51% SOC
10/7 - 39,500 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 56% SOC
10/15 - 40,000 miles, 71 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 45% SOC
10/30 - 41,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 66% SOC
12/26/16 - 43,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 13 deg, 77% SOC
6/10/17 - 49,600 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg, 70% SOC
7/1/17 - 51,000 miles, 62 mohms per LeafDD, 33 deg, 44% SOC
8/15/17 - 53,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 35 deg, 57% SOC
4/2/18 - 62,100 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 18 deg, 94% SOC
6/13/18 - 65,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 52% SOC
8/13/18 - 67,000 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 91% SOC
9/14/18 - 68,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 57% SOC
10/30/18 - 70,000 miles, 93 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 84% SOC
11/9/18 - 70,000 miles, 104 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 89% SOC
11/30/18 - 70,400 miles, 88 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 88% SOC
12/6/18 - 70,800 miles, 116 mohms per LeadDD, 13 deg, 33% SOC
1/30/18 - 72,300 miles, 86 mohms, per LeadDD, 23 deg, 45% SOC

The above reporting needs to be done on the later Leaf batteries. I plan on doing similar tests on my 2019 40 kWh Leaf.
Again, where are these data you reference;
from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably
Thanks for that information, actual data is always helpful; it would be great if we could get the same info for the new Plus.

As far as what I was referencing, I was specifically talking about 60kWh battery that Nissan showcased back in 2016. There was discussion around that time from engineers and some journalists that the internal resistance was greatly improved. I'll have to dig around a bit for specific references but this page alludes to it: https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp/dm/atclen/n ... 060700625/

Also, degradation from heat is largely dependent on the chemistry used. The 60kWh (or now 62kWh, technically - assuming it's the same battery) could be more durable than previous, so that's why I'd love to see at least one summer's performance before passing judgement. Hopefully we can get some actual data in about 6 months to get an idea of how well the batteries handled their first summer.
First LEAF: Blue 2012 SL, Delivered: 11/30/2012, Traded in: 8/31/2015
First bar lost: 8/14/2015 @ 29,450 miles

Second LEAF: Gunmetal 2015 SV w/QC, Delivered: 8/31/2015

Other car: Silver 2013 Volt

All powered by 10KW PV system

lorenfb
Posts: 2272
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:25 am

BrockWI wrote:I know we have talked about this before but it makes no sense to me that if you double the battery capacity the resistance stays the same given the same load. I just keep thinking of a 12v lead acid trolling motor in a boat. Now you add a second battery, both batteries will be cooler and you get 110% longer run time becasue of the reducing loading on each cell. Why is this not the case in the Leaf packs?/quote]

That's the case, i.e. reduced battery resistance with more batteries in parallel, but it assumes that no battery chemistry change occurred
that could affect the larger capacity battery's resistance. Without doing any testing, who knows.
BrockWI wrote:I do understand pulling the extra weight of a larger pack will add some additional load, but again I can't image that added load would be more than the added benefit of the larger pack in general.
Not if the added weight resulted in less efficiency and a marginal gain in range.

BrockWI wrote:IAnother way to look at this, say you have a race with four Leaf's, a 24, 30, 40 and 62. They all go the exact same speed for 30 minutes, I would image the 24 pack would be the hottest as your pulling the highest C rate from that pack, then the 30, then the 40 and finally the coolest being the 62 with the lowest C pull. Is that totally wrong? Isn't this the same as why the larger packs can charge faster as well?
Given that the weight & Cd (drag) of all vehicles were the same, the power (VxI) consumed from each vehicle's battery would be the same
for all vehicles to power the motor. The additional internal power loss of each battery depends on the internal resistance of each
battery type. But the larger batteries add weight to the vehicle causing more power demand from the motor, assuming the battery
density doesn't change. Furthermore, in reality it depends upon whether the internal resistance decreased such that it offset the added
weight of the larger batteries and the battery chemistry wasn't changed to achieve the greater capacity, which may have resulted
in just a marginal reduction of internal resistance over the smaller batteries than would have typically occurred with just more parallel
cells as one might expect. Again, without fully testing each battery, one is guessing.

My recent experience with my 2019 40 kWh Leaf versus my 24 kWh Leaf is that the battery temperature increases more rapidly
a higher speeds with the 40 kWh Leaf. Some of the increase results from the additional vehicle weight. Also, on the first QC for
30 minutes the battery temp reached 100 F (ambient 75, temp before the charge about 80), with an average charging power
of 33-38 kW (avg 100 amps). Assuming a battery resistance of .100 ohms, the battery power heat/loss was 1 kW.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Return to “LEAF Gen 2 & Infiniti EV”