User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:43 pm

Yes, the real achilles heel for BEVs is the refuel(recharge) time. Even at a high volume gas station like a Costco that might have 10 cars in queue for gas, the wait isn’t much longer than 20 minutes. And for BEVs the added insult is that they can’t even get a “full” charge in 30 minutes at a DCFC station.

I don’t really see a solution on the horizon to improve this situation either.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

WetEV
Posts: 3311
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:59 pm
Every BEV, from Tesla to Nissan suffers from multiple disadvantages when it comes to long distance travel.
Yes.
OrientExpress wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:59 pm
And they are serious enough that these shortcomings will hinder BEVs gaining more than 2-3% of the world-wide fleet any time soon.

I disagree. Most driving is local, not long distance. While some do enough long distance driving not to want a BEV, and more might want that capability even if they never use it, a lot more than 3% of cars are viewed by their owners as local/city/MetroArea/what_ever and range beyond that local number isn't useful, needed or even wanted if it costs more money.

How many hours a day can you stand to sit in a car? 8 hours with a lunch break? Then 300 mile range and half hour recharge would work for you: if there was infrastructure. Which there mostly isn't.

Every EV today isn't general case road trip capable. If you disagree, I'll give you a route to travel, and you tell us how to do it.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:56 pm

Yes, those of us that have been driving BEVs for years all know that urban driving is the sweet spot for BEVs, but that isn’t where the criticism is coming from.

Long distance travel, no matter how small of a percentage an activity, is how BEVs are judged by the great unwashed 98% of intenders to BEVs.

When we hear Tesla owners crow about their cars superiority it’s all about long distance travel even though it is only marginally better than the LEAFs.

When an ICE intender considers a BEV, for them it’s all about range and where to charge at. It’s an issue that can’t be discounted, and at this point is a detriment to mainstream adoption.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

lorenfb
Posts: 2296
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:56 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:56 pm
Yes, those of us that have been driving BEVs for years all know that urban driving is the sweet spot for BEVs, but that isn’t where the criticism is coming from.

Long distance travel, no matter how small of a percentage an activity, is how BEVs are judged by the great unwashed 98% of intenders to BEVs.

When we hear Tesla owners crow about their cars superiority it’s all about long distance travel even though it is only marginally better than the LEAFs.

When an ICE intender considers a BEV, for them it’s all about range and where to charge at. It’s an issue that can’t be discounted, and at this point is a detriment to mainstream adoption.
Yes, it's as simple as that!
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Titanium48
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:33 am
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2019
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:53 pm

Most driving is local, not long distance. While some do enough long distance driving not to want a BEV, and more might want that capability even if they never use it, a lot more than 3% of cars are viewed by their owners as local/city/MetroArea/what_ever and range beyond that local number isn't useful, needed or even wanted if it costs more money.

How many hours a day can you stand to sit in a car? 8 hours with a lunch break? Then 300 mile range and half hour recharge would work for you: if there was infrastructure. Which there mostly isn't.

Every EV today isn't general case road trip capable. If you disagree, I'll give you a route to travel, and you tell us how to do it.
I'd agree with this. There is approximately 1 car for everyone with a driver's license in North America, which means a lot of people own or jointly own multiple vehicles, and in many cases at least one of them is rarely or never used outside of the local urban area. That's probably 20-30% of all vehicles, not 2-3%.

I also agree about the infrastructure problem, especially if BEVs were to become a significant fraction of highway traffic. My road trips take me through relatively isolated small towns where there are 40 gas pumps near the highway and most of them are occupied during peak hours. Extending the refuelling time from 3-5 minutes to 30 minutes means a lot of chargers to find space for, in addition to the question of whether the electrical infrastructure in a town of 5000 permanent residents could handle tens of megawatts of EV charging.
2016 SL

johnlocke
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:25 pm

Titanium48 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:53 pm
Most driving is local, not long distance. While some do enough long distance driving not to want a BEV, and more might want that capability even if they never use it, a lot more than 3% of cars are viewed by their owners as local/city/MetroArea/what_ever and range beyond that local number isn't useful, needed or even wanted if it costs more money.

How many hours a day can you stand to sit in a car? 8 hours with a lunch break? Then 300 mile range and half hour recharge would work for you: if there was infrastructure. Which there mostly isn't.

Every EV today isn't general case road trip capable. If you disagree, I'll give you a route to travel, and you tell us how to do it.
I'd agree with this. There is approximately 1 car for everyone with a driver's license in North America, which means a lot of people own or jointly own multiple vehicles, and in many cases at least one of them is rarely or never used outside of the local urban area. That's probably 20-30% of all vehicles, not 2-3%.

I also agree about the infrastructure problem, especially if BEVs were to become a significant fraction of highway traffic. My road trips take me through relatively isolated small towns where there are 40 gas pumps near the highway and most of them are occupied during peak hours. Extending the refuelling time from 3-5 minutes to 30 minutes means a lot of chargers to find space for, in addition to the question of whether the electrical infrastructure in a town of 5000 permanent residents could handle tens of megawatts of EV charging.
The real problem is a lack of level 2 charging for those renting apartments. Far too many rent as opposed to own and they can't charge at home. If you can charge at home, owning an EV is a no-brainer. But if you live in the city, park on the street, or use the apartment's parking space then you need Level 3 fast charging preferably near restaurants and shopping. If you can charge the car while shopping, eating, or getting a manicure, it's all good.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1208
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:24 am

Twin motor Leaf on its way?

https://youtu.be/lSxhR27fr8w
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14388
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:07 am

OrientExpress wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:58 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:55 pm
80MPH....I wouldn't drive my ICE that fast as the wheels would fall off.

Here in Chicago, the freeways are 55mph. You can do 65-70 in places, but usually traffic makes you go much slower.
Ha! In the South, West and Flyover states, Interstate speeds are rarely below 75.
Statistics show that most will drive in "Doug-like" conditions with a minority (just under a 3rd) will enjoy the freedoms of an "OE-like" existence. FYI; The OE's are shrinking daily.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:15 am

The same can be said for how many miles of range people actually drive in a sitting. But the reality is that these conditions are what the bar is set at, and need to be met.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 1046
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:21 am

johnlocke wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:25 pm
The real problem is a lack of level 2 charging for those renting apartments. Far too many rent as opposed to own and they can't charge at home. If you can charge at home, owning an EV is a no-brainer. But if you live in the city, park on the street, or use the apartment's parking space then you need Level 3 fast charging preferably near restaurants and shopping. If you can charge the car while shopping, eating, or getting a manicure, it's all good.
My rentals have L2 charging. It's just L2. Put a L14-30 in an easily accessible area in an RV/camper box. That how I charge my leaf when pulling my trailer and working on the rentals.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

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