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Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:11 pm
by Evoforce
What I meant was... that none of the rapid degradation of the previous Leaf batteries, of any year, has been acceptable to me. ;) And... that my belief is that the 2018 Leaf battery, which is still designed without liquid management, will have a much shortened life without it.

Do I hope that (if possible) Nissan and their battery supplier can discover the battery that doesn't need it? Sure! But not the way they have been doing it at great expense to their customers and dinging EV battery reputation.

Give us batteries proven to work now and continue their research in their own experimental department and release it if they can perfect it. If it proves to be possible, it would be better. There would be less energy used on a daily basis and probably cheaper to produce.

If they could provide such a battery, their reputation is damaged, so, it will take some real convincing to trust that they have provided a battery without a TMS that will have the durability and longevity that it should.

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:15 am
by DaveinOlyWA
What would be acceptable? I wondered that myself and I guess it really depends on the size of the pack.

In 30 kwh pack; no more than 2% per 10,000 miles or less than 20% after 100,000 miles or 5 years, whichever is LATER.

On a 40 kwh pack, I would go either no more than 1% per 10,000 miles or MORE than 5% per year (so I get a replacement pack) since the range at replacement would still be near 100 miles :)

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:19 am
by SageBrush
In a well maintained Toyota or Honda the car can be expected to run 250k miles before a major repair occurs, and the repair is (just guessing here) in the $2-4,000 dollar range. For some people the more expensive upfront cost can be offset by the fuel savings over time but the Nissan EV longevity issue is far, far away from being fixed. 100k miles is not going to come close to being competitive unless the battery replacements are $1000

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:18 am
by powersurge
SageBrush wrote:In a well maintained Toyota or Honda the car can be expected to run 250k miles before a major repair occurs, and the repair is (just guessing here) in the $2-4,000 dollar range. For some people the more expensive upfront cost can be offset by the fuel savings over time but the Nissan EV longevity issue is far, far away from being fixed. 100k miles is not going to come close to being competitive unless the battery replacements are $1000
I don't think so.. At 100K miles, one can be prepared to put in a new transmission or engine on an ICE. If you have to change a battery on the Leaf at 100K miles, then that battery has given you great service for those miles.... Putting in a new battery cost would be giving the car a new life for the next 100K miles. A $6000 investment on a Leaf is a bargain to get another 100K miles. If any car without an engine is basically worth scrap, then the investment will save $15,000 in gas that you did not buy, and also saved $$$ on other repairs.

I really am surprised that so many people are concerned with depreciation, and the resale value of the Leaf when they are only Leasing. An owner would see that there is still value of the depreciated Leaf in being able to drive gas-free as long as he (she) is able to own that car.

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 am
by DaveinOlyWA
powersurge wrote:
SageBrush wrote:In a well maintained Toyota or Honda the car can be expected to run 250k miles before a major repair occurs, and the repair is (just guessing here) in the $2-4,000 dollar range. For some people the more expensive upfront cost can be offset by the fuel savings over time but the Nissan EV longevity issue is far, far away from being fixed. 100k miles is not going to come close to being competitive unless the battery replacements are $1000
I don't think so.. At 100K miles, one can be prepared to put in a new transmission or engine on an ICE. If you have to change a battery on the Leaf at 100K miles, then that battery has given you great service for those miles.... Putting in a new battery cost would be giving the car a new life for the next 100K miles. A $6000 investment on a Leaf is a bargain to get another 100K miles. If any car without an engine is basically worth scrap, then the investment will save $15,000 in gas that you did not buy, and also saved $$$ on other repairs.

I really am surprised that so many people are concerned with depreciation, and the resale value of the Leaf when they are only Leasing. An owner would see that there is still value of the depreciated Leaf in being able to drive gas-free as long as he (she) is able to own that car.
Agreed. We all have this false impression of these cars but reality simply does not jive here. We got a Yaris at around 30,000 miles (probably a rented rental) and it had timing belt, brakes, alignment, cooling system thingy, (I bought the car but not my car so don't remember all that has happened) and the car has yet to hit 130,000 miles.

Granted there are a bunch of cars out there that will go 200,000 miles with relatively few minor repairs but that is not the norm.

I have to say its probably not the car but the roads which are getting worse by the day.

But again, we are using the past of a rapidly emerging technology to predict the future while ignoring the basics.
whatever.

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:28 pm
by LeftieBiker
The idea that good quality ICE vehicles will go 250k miles without a major repair is, while not quite a myth, misleading. The reality is that many of them will SURVIVE that long, albeit usually with major repairs. Volvos are, or used to be, excellent examples of that. Some people do go 250k miles before a major system fails, but that's usually by racking up many miles over a short time period.

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:41 pm
by jjeff
In my area of the country the body usually fails long before the mechanicals :(
One of my previous vehicles, a Geo Metro 5 door that would routinely get +50 MPG hwy and high 40s city! was 10 years old, 80k miles(I didn't drive much) and the engine and 5 speed was like new(I changed oil every 3k). When I was going around a cloverleaf and the whole front of the car fell on the front tire :shock:
Apparently the Metro had a design defect where the area the shock/spring mounted to would rust through and the front of the vehicle would collapse!
Engine and drive train like new, due to the thin metal they used(to keep it under 1700 lbs!) repairing was not an option and I basically had to throw the car away :(
After than I only changed oil on my ICE's every 5-6k figuring in the end rust would kill them, not engine failure :x

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:35 am
by Jedlacks
This is a Japanese blog that I stumbled across through a YouTuber.

https://ev-owners.jp/blog/blog.cgi?id=6352

I will have to wait until some American usage statistics come out before I can even think of getting rid of my '15 SV and leasing a new one. I own mine, and at 42k miles I still have maximum usage for my commutes. At 12 bars, I may run it to 100,000 miles before I replace the main battery pack.

The words get jumbled in translation, but the message is still there. "The battery gets hot quickly, and the charge rate plummets".

(big sigh)

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:03 am
by SageBrush
LeftieBiker wrote:The idea that good quality ICE vehicles will go 250k miles without a major repair is, while not quite a myth, misleading.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-rep ... 000-miles/

Keep in mind that this article was talking about any car that is not a dud; the best Japanese brands are still significantly better.

The Prius wagon I sold this year to swap to a Prius Prime had 100k miles and might as well have been brand new. The quality is just amazing. You can see the same thing in the LEAF, by the way: other than the battery the car is extremely reliable.

Re: 2018 LEAF, Capacity, Range and efficiency

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:28 am
by edatoakrun
Jedlacks wrote:This is a Japanese blog that I stumbled across through a YouTuber.

https://ev-owners.jp/blog/blog.cgi?id=6352

...The words get jumbled in translation, but the message is still there. "The battery gets hot quickly, and the charge rate plummets"...
Google translation does not produce that actual quote.

Not enough intelligible data there to really discuss, initial charge state, ambient/battery temperatures, charger ratings etc.

We'll have many long-range trips with charging rate data from USA LEAFs to consider, very soon.

But thank you for making a semi-on-topic comment, after the 25 consecutive off-topic comments before, and already one more afterwards.