SageBrush
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:34 pm

Leaf15 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Leaf15 wrote:Ops, the car is loosing on average 20 miles a night to keep battery worm,
BS
May be in Colorado it is BS, not in PA (we have urban mountain areas as well where temp it 10-15F lower than average). It also depends if car is kept in garage or outside even in the same area(as it makes big deviations in temperatures). I take it you are not an authority for North East while living at place where "Winters are mild with an average daily high temperature of 45 degrees Fahrenheit and days reaching 60 degrees are not uncommon". We have 20F during day here lately. Think what happens during night? Low single digits F it is.
Besides, colleague had no reason to exaggerate or bad mouth his brand new car. BTW, he also mentioned it was ~ 15 miles in the late November when it was 45F day average (not night). I am kind of feeling guilty for suggesting him Model 3 LR, because it seems to fit his needs. But there is nothing else with longer range, so he would have to figure out how to do those trips. I overlooked parasitic BMS drain as I never experienced it on my Leaf; and thankfully, I never will.
I live in an area where under 0F, while not every day during the winter, is pretty common and - 15F is reason to remark about the weather. My car lives outside.

UNLIKE you, I actually own a Tesla Model 3. In my winter climate the vampire drain is ~ 1 -2 miles per 24 hours. One thing that does happen, though it is true of all batteries, is that battery capacity drops with temperature. As the battery warms up the range returns. Your friend noted a drop in range but both of you did not understand the cause or significance.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

arnis
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Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:10 pm

Leaf15 wrote:
arnis wrote:They are different, vehicle is 5mm higher (likely pack is 5mm thicker).
The 5mm may be used for active air cooling gap between battery and floor. The battery seems to be sealed though, so it may be the same size actually. But we have no info on it yet.
There is a lot of airgap on 24 30kWh Leaf. Battery is not same size. Battery exterior windflow has almost no effect on temperature loss.




Model 3 efficiency is not excellent in cold weather. Below freezing wayy to much energy is wasted on heating the battery for driving
But also Teslas are not efficient. Parasitic draw on these cars is ridiculous. Tesla doesn't keep battery warm while parked.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Kieran973
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Location: near NY, NY

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:11 pm

This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

cwerdna
Posts: 9731
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Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 pm

Kieran973 wrote:This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?
I don't know of any but digging around on TMC might turn up some answers. (e.g. Googling for stuff like vampire drain site:teslamotorsclub.com kWh night)

For instance, one guy states https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 130/page-3
I gave up on sleep mode (latency)and do use Teslafi (so pinging car every minute I think).
Here in Canada it is cold. And even the AP cameras are heated all night.
So when I leave mine for a week, it uses nearly 5 kWh AC per day. Wild big number.
I know because I submeter the circuit.
Maybe limit the results to updates in the past year via Google's tools.

I found https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-3262232 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ht.131149/.

I'm sure you can find way more. Unfortunately, it might be difficult to separate TMS from other "stuff" the car is doing.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:58 pm

I did find this on one of the Chevy Bolt forums:

"It's been hot the last 3 weeks in Nebraska, well over 90. Twice I have had the A/C on and parked for 10-15 min. Then I noticed a tiny sliver of thermal management on the energy screen. So it can and will operate with the car on. Not just plugged in. It used .2 KWH in 15 min."

https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-char ... ement.html

So at least according to this one random person, .8 kWh for one hour of TMS in 90+ degree heat. If you almost never see temps like that in your area, or if you have a way to protect your car somewhat from them (parking in a shaded garage, etc.), this might not matter so much. But if it's 90 degrees for 8 hours a day, 90 days out of the year (lots of places in the south and midwest experience this), then that would be .8 x 8 x 90 = 576 kWh a year. And if your annual driving consumes 3,000 kWh a year (12,000 miles/4 miles per kWh), then your annual TMS consumption would be 576/3,000 = 19.2% of your driving consumption - not insignificant.

At $.12 per kWh, your TMS would cost $69.12 per year or $691.20 over 10 years. This of course doesn't include winter. If you are also unfortunate enough to experience 8 hours a day, 90 days a year of sub-freezing temperatures, then your TMS consumption could be double (40ish percent of your driving consumption, roughly $140 a year in electricity costs). That's over 2 grand in extra electricity over 15 years. So, definitely less expensive than an out of warranty battery replacement, but that still seems like kind of a lot of consumption....
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

cwerdna
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 am

^^^
And each vehicle is different.

Example discussion for gen 2 Rav4 EV: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1060. TonyWilliams should be able to chime in with anything more definitive/corrections. There's a reference to gen 1 Volt in there too.

It sounds like if you wanted to keep your Rav4 EV battery cooled, you needed to leave the car in READY mode (green car w/arrows on Leaf).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Leaf15
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:51 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2018
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:51 am

BMS consumption in the summer should be theoretically less, because of it is using AC loop to cool the battery. Similar to Heat pump vs. HV resistive heater difference. Winters are not as good as most "big ass" battery EV do not bother with heat pump (hopefully upcoming Kona and Niro are exceptions) at mild temperatures and rely exclusively on HV Resistive Heaters (4 times less efficient then HP). Some, like Tesla 3, does not even have any heaters in battery loop - it simply shorting coils in motor to produce heat (even worse than dedicated electric heater). But Model 3 still do not hold battery in optimal range as in cold weather regen/range is reduced while operating motor gradually heating up the battery to optimal range eventually, after ~ 10 miles (probably result of not having dedicated heater). In my commute scenario - Model3 may not get to optimal temperature, so it would always drive in reduced efficiency, so is my Leaf as regen/range is reduced on cold battery as well.
Telsa S and X, Bolt may be better to access BMS impact as those have fully implemented heater loops.

Knowing the efficiency ratio of heat pump (HP) to HV Resistive Heater (4:1 observed in energy screen on Leaf, but HP is probably less powerful than electric heater, so true ratio may be less), one can estimate possible impact in winter based off summer figures. Maybe assuming 1:2 summer/winter impact in consumption.
Leaf 2015 SV CPO traded for 2019 Hyundai Ioniq EV Limited

WetEV
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:59 am

Leaf15 wrote:Winters are not as good as most "big ass" battery EV do not bother with heat pump (hopefully upcoming Kona and Niro are exceptions) at mild temperatures and rely exclusively on HV Resistive Heaters (4 times less efficient then HP).
At temperatures where heating the battery is critical, the heat pump is about as efficient as a resistive heater.

Energy use for TMS depends on climate and car usage. Most people will see zero, or nearly so. Hot place will see cooling, cold places will see heating. Hot places with spirited driving and multiple QCs will see the most cooling.

Battery chemistry isn't easy to understand... Adding active cooling is easy to understand.

When Nissan's battery chemistry was failing in the 2011 and 2012, people blamed the thing they could understand, no active cooling.

Active cooling isn't helpful for most people, most of the time. It doesn't run, so it doesn't make any difference, at best.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
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arnis
Posts: 965
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Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:26 pm

Kieran973 wrote:This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?
Nissan went the efficient way - almost zero. There are very rare instances when heating is activated (just before battery freezes).
Tesla went the other way - it heats the battery during preconditioning and at the beginning of the trip like crazy as it has absolutely no regen or any charge acceptance below 0*C. Leaf handles cold much better (though handles hot much worse).
Other manufacturers are somewhere in between.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

Leaf15
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:51 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2018
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:28 pm

Nissan USA web site posted Nissan Leaf Plus introduction and subscribe for availability:

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/elec ... -the-first
Leaf 2015 SV CPO traded for 2019 Hyundai Ioniq EV Limited

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