SageBrush
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 5:26 am

jjeff wrote:I don't think you said what kind of Prius you were looking at, but if it were a Prime and your trips were generally ~20 miles, you may be able to get by with very little fuel, but still have the advantage of being able to drive on long trips.
If I were to only have one vehicle it would probably be a Prime, for a 2 or more vehicle person/family the Leaf really makes sense for 95% of your trips, up to 70 or so miles summer, as low as 40 miles in 0 or sub zero F temps.
Not as sure about the newer Prius's but the older ones have much more storage in the rear than a Leaf. I can haul things in our Prius that I could never in the Leaf.
I am a gentle driver, but the Prime has been exceeding my expectations:

About 35 miles EV per charge
110 mpg on my 90 mile commute to work on one charge. EPA would estimate ~ 76 mpg for this trip.
The unsung other advantage of the Prime is advanced safety features, even in the base trim. Fantastic value overall.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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IssacZachary
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 7:47 am

Another thing to factor in is depreciation. Leafs depreciate quickly, and Toyotas in general do not. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 to 20 years then depreciation doesn't matter. If you buy used then depreciation is a good thing since you can pick up an ok Leaf for as low as $5,000. But when buying new, it's something to factor in.

According to Edmund's TCO (true cost to own) calculator a 2017 Nissan Leaf S will cost a total of $39,640 over the next 5 years ($24,079 of which would be from depreciation), whereas a 2017 Prius Prime will cost $37,407 over the next 5 years ($20,124 of which would be from depreciation).

When I bought my used 2013 Leaf SL in November, Edmund's quoted me at about $20,000 for five years. It was the cheapest figure on their calculator I could get out of any car at that time, even cheaper than a 2014 Mitsubishi Mirage. And their figure didn't even figure in the 24% Colorado tax rebate I'd get by buying a used Leaf from out-of-state. Of course the $8,000 I paid for the car can only depreciate $8,000 at most. In five years it might be worth only $2,000, but I'd only have lost $6,000 in depreciation. That's $14,000 in depreciation money and $17,000 total that I save from not buying a new Prius Prime. With that I can rent a car when I need to go far. Or put that money towards a homemade range extender for the Leaf.
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid CURRENT

SageBrush
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 8:42 am

IssacZachary wrote:Another thing to factor in is depreciation. Leafs depreciate quickly, and Toyotas in general do not. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 to 20 years then depreciation doesn't matter. If you buy used then depreciation is a good thing since you can pick up an ok Leaf for as low as $5,000. But when buying new, it's something to factor in.

According to Edmund's TCO (true cost to own) calculator a 2017 Nissan Leaf S will cost a total of $39,640 over the next 5 years ($24,079 of which would be from depreciation), whereas a 2017 Prius Prime will cost $37,407 over the next 5 years ($20,124 of which would be from depreciation).

When I bought my used 2013 Leaf SL in November, Edmund's quoted me at about $20,000 for five years. It was the cheapest figure on their calculator I could get out of any car at that time, even cheaper than a 2014 Mitsubishi Mirage. And their figure didn't even figure in the 24% Colorado tax rebate I'd get by buying a used Leaf from out-of-state. Of course the $8,000 I paid for the car can only depreciate $8,000 at most. In five years it might be worth only $2,000, but I'd only have lost $6,000 in depreciation. That's $14,000 in depreciation money and $17,000 total that I save from not buying a new Prius Prime. With that I can rent a car when I need to go far. Or put that money towards a homemade range extender for the Leaf.
Speaking of Colorado, between state and federal rebates I will receive $9,200 in tax credits, so my cost to buy the Prime was $16,300 before state taxes. I'm pretty sure the car will be worth that much in five years when the tax credits are no longer available to new cars so my cost is at most zero for the car and likely actually profitable.

If I like the Model 3, I plan to buy it in 2018 and I'm pretty confident that my less than one year old Prime will be worth somewhere in the range of 20k - 22k in the secondary market of neighboring states that do not have Colorado's state tax credit and are currently selling the car new for ~ $28k. If I am fortunate I'll gain $12,500 in combined federal and state tax credits when I buy the $35k Model 3. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you, if you dare.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
IssacZachary
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 9:55 am

SageBrush wrote:Speaking of Colorado, between state and federal rebates I will receive $9,200 in tax credits, so my cost to buy the Prime was $16,300 before state taxes. I'm pretty sure the car will be worth that much in five years when the tax credits are no longer available to new cars so my cost is at most zero for the car and likely actually profitable.

If I like the Model 3, I plan to buy it in 2018 and I'm pretty confident that my less than one year old Prime will be worth somewhere in the range of 20k - 22k in the secondary market of neighboring states that do not have Colorado's state tax credit and are currently selling the car new for ~ $28k. If I am fortunate I'll gain $12,500 in combined federal and state tax credits when I buy the $35k Model 3. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you, if you dare.
Perhaps, and it is all speculation. According to Edmunds you'll lose almost $12,000 in value in the first year. With the tax rebate you only lose $2,800 in value in the first year. But in reality you might be able to gain money like you said. And I really doubt I'll have spent $20,000 total on my Leaf in five years. Maybe I should sell it now and earn the $2,000 for not having to pay back the tax rebate.
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid CURRENT

SageBrush
Posts: 5266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 11:35 am

IssacZachary wrote: Perhaps, and it is all speculation. According to Edmunds you'll lose almost $12,000 in value in the first year. .
50% depreciation on the Prius Prime in one year ?!?

I'm not worried
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

TreeStar
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 7:38 pm
Delivery Date: 29 May 2017
Location: Oregon City, Oregon

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 1:25 pm

Looks like I was wrong about the kWh price. I just did a quick search before. I'm not the one who pays the bill, and I don't recall how the breakdown works of actual cost. I know it's cheaper in the evening/night.

https://www.portlandgeneral.com/residen ... ic-service


I live in the Portland, Oregon area. My commute to the transit stop is 12 miles one way. This equates to 260 days out of the year only traveling 24 miles per day (not accounting for groceries, gym, or any other errand I need to run).

The house I will be moving to will have a 240volt plug I can use if I buy the Level 2 charger.


I was just looking at the base model Prius (One). They also have a certified used Prius for $16,300 that would make payments $180 /month.


I do like the idea of having a newer car under warranty. It's almost like an insurance policy becuase I know how much it will cost every month. As where that is an unknown factor with an older car not under warranty.

TreeStar
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 7:38 pm
Delivery Date: 29 May 2017
Location: Oregon City, Oregon

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 3:32 pm

IssacZachary wrote:Another thing to factor in is depreciation. Leafs depreciate quickly, and Toyotas in general do not. If you plan on keeping the car for 10 to 20 years then depreciation doesn't matter. If you buy used then depreciation is a good thing since you can pick up an ok Leaf for as low as $5,000. But when buying new, it's something to factor in.

According to Edmund's TCO (true cost to own) calculator a 2017 Nissan Leaf S will cost a total of $39,640 over the next 5 years ($24,079 of which would be from depreciation), whereas a 2017 Prius Prime will cost $37,407 over the next 5 years ($20,124 of which would be from depreciation).

This terrifies me and is making me think quit a bit. Like that totally blows my mind.

Perhaps a used Prius is a better route.



*EDIT: That's based on a full priced car, not an $18,165 car (rebates).

I ran it and got these figures. Total Cash Price: $30,817. True Cost To Own: $36,694. Depreciation being $22,705. That would tell me depreciation would be in theory only be $7,355. EDIT. Looking at 3 years the rebates essentially pay for the first 2 years of depreciation. The maintenance is also an odd factor on this. I looked at a used Prius and Leaf on this. You pay considerably more than what the car cost.

Do people really pay that little for insurance? I pay $1,314 a year!

This car on a 3 year lease has payments of $151.05 /month. The residual value (Nissan wholesale price) will be $8,714 after the lease.

User avatar
IssacZachary
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 6:48 pm

TreeStar wrote:This terrifies me and is making me think quit a bit. Like that totally blows my mind.

Perhaps a used Prius is a better route.



*EDIT: That's based on a full priced car, not an $18,165 car (rebates).

I ran it and got these figures. Total Cash Price: $30,817. True Cost To Own: $36,694. Depreciation being $22,705. That would tell me depreciation would be in theory only be $7,355. EDIT. Looking at 3 years the rebates essentially pay for the first 2 years of depreciation. The maintenance is also an odd factor on this. I looked at a used Prius and Leaf on this. You pay considerably more than what the car cost.

Do people really pay that little for insurance? I pay $1,314 a year!

This car on a 3 year lease has payments of $151.05 /month. The residual value (Nissan wholesale price) will be $8,714 after the lease.
The calculator isn't at all perfect, and the numbers can change dramatically depending on various factors. Some people pay next to nothing for insurance and others an arm and a leg. Another benefit of buying used (and cheaper initially) is that you can pay off the loan quicker and then go to minimum insurance requirements instead of having to be stuck with paying full coverage for a longer time. Interest is usually higher for used cars, but by paying it off quicker you can end up paying less for interest too. You also pay less taxes on older, cheaper cars.

So far I've heard and read that Leafs are extremely low maintenance and extremely reliable. (1 in 10,000 have had major problems compared to the average 1 in 400 for other new cars.) Prii are also low maintenance and reliable, but the Leaf still beats it IMO, unless you live in a hot area where your battery is going to die young. But that could be just as bad for a Prius as it is for Leaf, although I haven't researched it. As far as regular maintenance goes, no oil changes, no spark plugs, no engine filters, no nothing, ever in a Leaf, except brake fluid and coolant flushes (coolant flush after 150,000miles!). And about the only repair item on the list for the future is the traction battery. No timing belts, no catalytic converters, no O2 sensors, no EGR valves, no thermostats, no EVAP system parts, no rings, no pistons, no bearings (well, maybe bearings), no cam followers and no transmission fluid, solenoids or clutchs. Once these cars have over 200,000 miles on them and the price (hopefully) for traction batteries drops, some people may prefer an old Leaf needing just a battery over another 200,000 mile car that you're not sure if you're going to have change the engine or the transmission or anything else that's a part of an ICE vehicle. Of course we're still not sure how well the EV motor and inverters/chargers/controllers will hold up on our Leafs, but I'd be willing to bet they'll hold up much longer than any internal combustion engine or automatic transmission.

Here's the prices on a 2013 Leaf and a 2013 Prius Plugin:
Leaf: $22,789 over 5 years
Prius Plug: $27,212 over 5 years

Here's the prices on a 2011 Leaf and a 2011 Prius:
Leaf: $19,405 over 5 years
Prius: $23,426 over 5 years
Last edited by IssacZachary on Mon May 29, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 SL SOLD :cry:
2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid CURRENT

TreeStar
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 7:38 pm
Delivery Date: 29 May 2017
Location: Oregon City, Oregon

Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 7:13 pm

It seems as if this is a great way to get a new car that's super low maintenance and absurd fuel economy along with not having to worry about it going out on me.

Now... 2 or 3 year lease... Hmmmm. Because after that time is up, I have to poo or get off the pot. Buying at that point does sound interesting, but if I do that, I should do the 36 month lease.

Don't these batters have like an 80,000 mile warranty?

LeftieBiker
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Re: Leaf or Prius?

Mon May 29, 2017 8:06 pm

The warranty you reference is against manufacturing defects, not "normal" degradation.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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