joeriv
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:38 pm

A large fraction of Nissan batteries are losing 10 - 20% capacity a year. The 80% depreciation in 3 years is in large part due to the crappy battery pack.
Can you please give a source for this - I'd like to see hard data.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:02 pm

TomT wrote:..we all know...
Tony828 wrote:...Nissan's battery degradation is common knowledge...
joeriv wrote:
(SageBrush wrote:)

A large fraction of Nissan batteries are losing 10 - 20% capacity a year. The 80% depreciation in 3 years is in large part due to the crappy battery pack.
Can you please give a source for this - I'd like to see hard data.
Oh, ome on, joeriv. Now you're just being unreasonable...

Why should such an overwhelmingly large pile of data, carefully pulled from such a large a number of asses, need any factual support ?
no condition is permanent

Durandal
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:55 am
Delivery Date: 22 Sep 2016
Leaf Number: 025018
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:32 pm

I can see 10% a year in Arizona or such, but in Arkansas, so far my pack has lost 4.6% over the 11 month period of time that I've been tracking my battery with LeafSpy. I suspect it will hit 5.25-5.5% total capacity lost once it hits 12 months of data collection. 20% would be... just over the top except in rare instances, I would say.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf SL, traded it in and now I'm a very happy Tesla Model 3 owner.

Durandal
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:55 am
Delivery Date: 22 Sep 2016
Leaf Number: 025018
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:36 pm

edatoakrun wrote: Liquid cooling is only cost effective if If you have a very expensive pack, or in instances when a flammable battery pack (tesla) makes it a safety requirement.

As battery costs continue to fall rapidly, the added expense and efficiency penalty of liquid cooling makes even less sense than it did in the past.

Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.

It would be disappointing if Nissan, in a misguided attempt to satisfy common stupidity, handicaps the Gen two leaf with liquid cooling.
I sincerely doubt that liquid cooling adds more than $500 of production cost to the car. In any event, your reactions to the topic of liquid cooling are consistently hostile and over-reactionary. Why do you get so angry over the topic? Leaf batter degradation is well documented, and a real problem when it comes to residual values and long-term use of the vehicles. If my Leaf doesn't qualify for a warranty replacement this year, its usability will be very limited in 2 years time. It's sad that a 2012 vehicle would be near unusable in a 7 year time span.

Sure, I could drop another $6,000 to get a replacement battery for my Leaf, but I'd rather drop $9,000 and get another 90 miles added onto my Model 3 in April 2018.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf SL, traded it in and now I'm a very happy Tesla Model 3 owner.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:11 pm

Durandal wrote:... Leaf batter (sic) degradation is well documented....
Unfortunately, it is not.
The only real data available of which I am aware is from:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-po ... chitecture

I suggest you begin to educate yourselves by comparing the (limited) data from the 2013 LEAF and Focus E, two similar sized BEVs with similar sized packs.

The Battery Pack Laboratory Testing Results show both sets of BEVs experienced very similar rapid degradation in the extreme Arizona climate.

The liquid-cooled Focus, however, used ~20% more energy, evidently by trying to cool the pack, as shown by : Mileage Accumulation and Fuel Economy.

Some of the other BEVs seemed to be doing slightly better, and some worse, once you normalize for other factors, until all testing was (unfortunately) terminated, with most of the BEVs having had very little data collected.
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:07 am

joeriv wrote:
A large fraction of Nissan batteries are losing 10 - 20% capacity a year. The 80% depreciation in 3 years is in large part due to the crappy battery pack.
Can you please give a source for this - I'd like to see hard data.
To be clear, I didn't mean that 10-20% capacity loss per year is typical. I agree with Durandal that 5% loss per year is around median.
This graph was taken from one of the threads in this forum. The thread was titled along the lines of 'when did you lose your first bar' which corresponds to 15% loss. My earlier statement was based on the first two groups in this graph. A full 29% of owners can look forward to ~ 30% loss of capacity by 30-40k miles. The majority of packs will be severely degraded by 60k miles, aka when the warranty is up.

That is the data, and it is way past anecdotal. It is Nissan engineering the packs to kinda sorta last until the warranty lapses while taking a cynical and antagonistic approach to customers with packs that age even faster. In an age where well-built ICE cars last 20 years and 300k miles and the Tesla battery degrades ~ 1 -- 2% a year over time, the Nissan LEAF is ... an embarrassment to the EV movement. As for staying the course in the LEAF2 with this degradation approach, all I can say is not with my money, and not with the money of anybody who listens to me unless the car is discounted 65%

Image
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Stoaty
Posts: 4487
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:53 am

edatoakrun wrote:Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.
My "better" 2011 Leaf lost over 30% capacity in 6 years. By contrast, the 2013 Tesla Model S I recently purchased for $43,000 has lost about 5% of original capacity. No more "better" for me. I will stick with the poor 250 mile range and supercharger access.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:15 am

Stoaty wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design.
My "better" 2011 Leaf lost over 30% capacity in 6 years. By contrast, the 2013 Tesla Model S I recently purchased for $43,000 has lost about 5% of original capacity...
From AVTA test results, it looks like the liquid cooled Tesla packs in the B class BEVs, on average required ~30% more Wh per mile driven than the LEAFs, and suffered ~6% pack degradation over one year and ~12k miles.

The B packs degradation rate is somewhat better than The LEAFs (or most all of the other BEVs tested) but how much of the improved retention of capacity was due to active cooling, and how much was due to the reduced number of charge/discharge cycles provided by the B's much larger packs (and also by limiting the drivers' access to a lower percentage of the total pack capacity ?) remains unknown.

Unfortunately, no one (to my knowledge) has ever conducted independent testing of any Tesla BEVs, in order to determine accurate battery degradation rates.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2015 ... es-b-class
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:24 am

Jedlacks wrote:
Sagebrush wrote:A large fraction of Nissan batteries are losing 20% capacity a year.
You are welcome to the brilliant design. I suggest you buy three.
This may be sarcasm, but I am unsure...
If you said a small fraction is losing 20% of range a year It would make sense. Then again, you did not say what "size" fraction, but saying a large fraction can be misleading. Nevertheless, this is the internet(s) and we are entitled to our our facts.

My fact checking involved a calculator and taking a 20% reduction each year. Try it out. Fact check your own statement
You are right -- I did not define 'large.'

I meant it in these terms: that the number is large enough to dissuade me (and I suspect the majority of people) from buying the car at anywhere near msrp if the fact was known.

See the data in a post a little bit higher up in this thread.
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14149
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:28 am

SageBrush wrote:A large fraction of Nissan batteries are losing 20% capacity a year.

You are welcome to the brilliant design. I suggest you buy three.
LOL!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Return to “New Members & Newbie Questions”