BrockWI
Posts: 798
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:01 am

I should have added to my post, we run snows in winter and right away I see a .3 decrease in miles / kWh and having a 13 S we also only have the resistance heater, although I set that to 90F and leave it on fan speed one, usually pulling about 1500 to 2000 watts once warmed up and we pre-heat the cabin 95% time.
3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 200k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@90k miles - 54.71Ahr - 83.64SOH - 78.44Hx - 237GID

jjeff
Posts: 1971
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:20 am

I guess is what we're trying to stress to the OP, especially living in Canada is cold weather really kills range. Take for instance yesterday when it was in the low teens in MN. We had to run several local errands and I knew one of the stops had a free 30a L2 ChargePoint EVSE so I purposely only left with a 50% charge, note this SOC would easily make the whole trip in the summer. By the time we got to HyVee(that had the free L2 EVSEs) we were down to about 30%, this was less than 1/2 our total planned trip. Parking for 48 minutes got us back to about 50% SOC. By the time we finished our trip the miles were flashing and SOC% was in the single digits. Note as I figured we had enough charge I didn't really restrict our heat use so we had an upper mid-level fan speed which with outside temps probably meant the resistive heater(my '13S) was running 100% on. Note at these temps a heatpump Leaf wouldn't probably have gained us much. And note the roads were totally clear, not much wind and most of our roads were 40-50 mph, no freeways. Our final stretch was on a highway doing 55mph and every time I'd look down at the SOC% it would be down another 1 or 2% :cry:
If your OK driving without heat the range would not be affected nearly as much but often times when it gets cold the windows are very apt to frost up, driving in such a state isn't really safe without running the heat to defrost the windshield or side windows, I'd done it with cold air and it helps a little but your really need heat to do a decent job.
Summer, no problem with your commute and a 24kWh Leaf, winter, without work or charging along the way, I wouldn't recommend it :) Also note in very cold temps charging speed can slow down quite a bit. It did on the Chargepoint EVSE I used, normally a 48 minute charge would gain me closer to 30% SOC and yesterday it only gained about 20% :( Just when you need the speed the most, it slows down! Same thing with regen, the colder it gets the less regen you get. BEVs are great cars in moderate temps but you really need to oversize the battery in very cold temps.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

rcrw88
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:20 am
Delivery Date: 24 Jan 2019
Leaf Number: 4980
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:45 pm

I'm almost entirely set on getting a volt now. I was toying with the idea of picking the leaf with fast charge and relying on the chademo half way there if things got really hairy but I was convinced eliminating the stress by having an ICE backup is best. I'm hoping in a few years if/when the 2018/2019 leaf is affordable, has a battery that works for me, and I establish a work charging spot ahead of time, I'll definitely reconsider. My issue was that my car was totaled so it accelerated my timeline! Thanks y'all

jjeff
Posts: 1971
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:56 pm

rcrw88 wrote:I'm almost entirely set on getting a volt now. I was toying with the idea of picking the leaf with fast charge and relying on the chademo half way there if things got really hairy but I was convinced eliminating the stress by having an ICE backup is best. I'm hoping in a few years if/when the 2018/2019 leaf is affordable, has a battery that works for me, and I establish a work charging spot ahead of time, I'll definitely reconsider. My issue was that my car was totaled so it accelerated my timeline! Thanks y'all
The Volt seems like a very handy vehicle and believe me you, if I had fit into the Volt I'd probably be driving one now. Unfortunately it just left me feeling way too cramped and claustrophobic. If you fit fine in the Volt and it has enough storage, I'd say it sounds like a better fit in your case :)
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

lebikerboy
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:03 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2019
Location: North Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:55 pm

Be aware that GM is discontinuing the Volt... :o
http://fortune.com/2018/11/26/gm-discon ... c-xts-ct6/
2019 Leaf SV

"If a situation requires your undivided attention, it
will occur simultaneously with a compelling distraction."
:roll:

rcrw88
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:20 am
Delivery Date: 24 Jan 2019
Leaf Number: 4980
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:48 pm

Yep, thats always been on my radar. A bit of a shock, considering how well it's been doing

specialgreen
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2017
Location: Minnesota

Re: Range anxiety..

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:12 pm

The biggest drop I've seen on my 2017 GOM is 26% less range in 0F/-18C and using snow tires. If my battery is 30kwhr, then that's about 7.8 kwhrs of "penalty" for being winter, spent over about 90 minutes of driving (5.2 kwhrs extra per hour of driving). I think that matches reports of the inductive heater?defrost pulling as much as 5kw.

If you had a 30kwhr battery (2016/2017), and it was degraded 30% over 5 years (effectively 21 kwhrs), and you wanted to arrive home at about the "Very Low Battery" alert (7%-8%, or 1.6kwhrs), then you have about 124 km's of range at 96 km/hr, according to Tony's chart. If your commute took 90 minutes total, you might subtract about 7.8 kwhrs for heating, or 37% of your capacity, yielding about 78 km. (37% range loss for heating/snow tires on a 30kwhr Leaf also sounds reasonable to me, based on other reports).

So even with a late-model 30kwhr Leaf, with the heat-pump, that's the case where you would still not have enough range for your commute (you may be short by 19 km):
- the battery has degraded by 30% (maybe 5-7 years after manufacture, in your climate)
- it's -18C and you're using snow tires, plus some loose snow on the roads
- no preheating

The easiest way to improve this is to preheat the car while plugged into a L2 charger at home. If the car is toasty and 100% charged when you depart for work, I doubt that the heater would pull more than 3kw, saving you about 3.6kw on the way to work. That's enough for 16 extra kilometers.

A second way to improve would be to slow down to 90 km/hr on the coldest days. An 8km/hr slowdown should get you an extra 12 km (per Tony's sheet).

A third improvement would be to get a plug at work (even a 120v, 12A plug at the lamp-post would add 7km per hour). I don't think this would be necessary until range has degraded by 30%, so you wouldn't need it for several years.

My guess is that, provided that you preheat before departure, a 2016/2017 Leaf with heat pump should work without a plug-in at work until it's 3 to 5 years old. Years down the road, when the car is 30% degraded, then some kind of plug-in at work would be necessary. If that outlet is not in the cards, then the Volt is also an excellent choice. (Though the Volt would benefit even more from a workplace charging outlet).

FYI, my pack is at 2.3% degradation after 19 months in Minnesota. Our weather is about the same (-9.1 C vs your -4.7 C daily mean in Jan, 23.2 C vs your 22 C daily mean in July). I am not expecting to see 30% degradation until 6.5 years (winter 2023/2024 for a 2017; a year earlier for a 2016), based on comparing my numbers with FlipTheFleet.org charts. If you're buying used, be sure to buy a Leaf used in Canada, and not something trucked-in from Arizona (not sure if they do that). If I were you, I'd probably be looking at 2016 Leaf SLs, or SV with heat pump (may be hard to find). If I were buying new, I'd either look at a 60kw+ car (Bolt, Niro EV, Kona EV, Soul EV) or wait for the 60kw Leaf.

rcrw88
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:20 am
Delivery Date: 24 Jan 2019
Leaf Number: 4980
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:56 am

I was looking at 2015s. The one I wanted didn't have fast charging either. :(

Ty for the input on range; I test drove another leaf for its full range and got about 70km, but it was mild.

powersurge
Posts: 1514
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Range anxiety..

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:28 am

To "SPecialgreen"..

What you are describing is a case of the reality of driving an EV. You do not say how far you drove in the 0 degree weather. I do not see your experience as unusual, as your car is pretty much powering an "electric toaster" with heating elements every minute that you are driving.

It is the state of technology of EVs. What I wish the car companies would do would be to include a dedicated kerosene (or other fluid) heater with a separate tank we could fill when needed...

This can be done, as I remember as a kid, we used to have stainless steel pocket heaters that were powered by lighter fluid. We would light a glowing wick, cover it with the steel cover, and put it in our pockets. All very safe and reliable, and it would keep you warm for many hours...

Dooglas
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Range anxiety..

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:56 pm

powersurge wrote:It is the state of technology of EVs. What I wish the car companies would do would be to include a dedicated kerosene (or other fluid) heater with a separate tank we could fill when needed...
VW equipped many of their later air-cooled vehicles with a gasoline powered heater which ran off the fuel tank of the vehicle. Made by Eberspacher I believe. Had the advantage of facilitating cold weather preheating as well as working much better than the hot air exchange system otherwise used by VW at the time to heat their vehicles. The technology certainly exists, the question is only whether there is enough interest for Nissan and others to offer the option. You'd think those Scandinavians, with their involvement in electric cars, would be interested.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30 - purchased

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