SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:18 am

GerryAZ wrote:The annual battery test does not cost much and is required to keep the battery warranty intact.
Incorrect
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

telero
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:26 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2019
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:50 am

SageBrush wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:The annual battery test does not cost much and is required to keep the battery warranty intact.
Incorrect
It actually does appear to be a condition of the capacity warranty (at least in the 2019 guide).

From the Manuals and Guides site (https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide):
Service and Maintenance Guide (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... -guide.pdf):

EV Battery Usage Report

To maximize the life of your Liion battery, have the EV Battery Usage Report generated and reviewed with you. Review of the EV Battery Usage report is required as a condition of EV battery warranty. Refer to your 2019 LEAF warranty information booklet for details. Both the 12 month and 24 month inspections will be performed by your Nissan LEAF certified dealer at no cost to the vehicle owner

Similar wording in the 2015 manuals and guides as well: https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf
2019 SV
Gun Metallic

SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:01 am

telero wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:The annual battery test does not cost much and is required to keep the battery warranty intact.
Incorrect
It actually does appear to be a condition of the capacity warranty (at least in the 2019 guide).

From the Manuals and Guides site (https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide):
Service and Maintenance Guide (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... -guide.pdf):

EV Battery Usage Report

To maximize the life of your Liion battery, have the EV Battery Usage Report generated and reviewed with you. Review of the EV Battery Usage report is required as a condition of EV battery warranty. Refer to your 2019 LEAF warranty information booklet for details. Both the 12 month and 24 month inspections will be performed by your Nissan LEAF certified dealer at no cost to the vehicle owner

Similar wording in the 2015 manuals and guides as well: https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf
Keep reading.

I cannot find the verbiage at the moment but paraphrased it says that if a warranty cost could have been avoided by a missed inspection the damages are on the owner. The burden of proof would be on Nissan.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

telero
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:26 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2019
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:38 am

SageBrush wrote: I cannot find the verbiage at the moment but paraphrased it says that if a warranty cost could have been avoided by a missed inspection the damages are on the owner.
What you said there about warranty and missed inspections is pretty much what is quoted in the manual: "Review of the EV Battery Usage report is required as a condition of EV battery warranty." The inspection would be your proof that they didn't find anything that would cause loss of warranty.
SageBrush wrote: The burden of proof would be on Nissan.
In reality, it'd be on the owner. If Nissan tried to deny a warranty claim on battery capacity, you'd need to show the records that you had the yearly inspections.
2019 SV
Gun Metallic

SageBrush
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Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:56 am

telero wrote: In reality, it'd be on the owner..
Wrong.

It is the same story with car mods and missed maintenance. The manufacturer has to prove cause.
From the FTC:
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0 ... aintenance

Since the battery check is only diagnostic and repair is only undertaken if the battery fails, there is no way for Nissan to argue that service checks would have reduced their warranty costs.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

telero
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:26 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2019
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:47 pm

SageBrush wrote: It is the same story with car mods and missed maintenance. The manufacturer has to prove cause.
From the FTC:
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0 ... aintenance

Since the battery check is only diagnostic and repair is only undertaken if the battery fails, there is no way for Nissan to argue that service checks would have reduced their warranty costs.
Nothing in the FTC link you posted says that missed maintenance would allow denying a claim. It actually says the opposite:

"If you ever have a warranty claim and it appears that you did not maintain your vehicle, your claim could be denied."

It also says that you can't be required to have specific dealers/manufacturers do the maintenance, including that you can do it yourself. But, who is capable of performing this EV Battery Usage report? Maybe you could do it with LeafSpy if you knew what was on the report. What the manufacturer would have to prove to deny a warranty claim is that an aftermarket or recycled part caused the failure, which isn't a concern in this specific case we're talking about.

Nissan would have an argument that not having the diagnostic check done would have prevented them from noticing an issue early enough to provide a lower cost fix and could potentially deny the claim, or partial value of the repair.
2019 SV
Gun Metallic

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Marktm
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Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:19 pm

I bought a used 2012 in Jan 2016. I took it to a local dealer who did a battery check for free - had no record of any previous checks. To me, the "check" was very elementary and I suspect that the dealer can get substantial additional data from the logging system that might indicate tampering/abusing the battery!

In Nov 2016, the 9th bar was lost and the same dealer replaced the battery at no charge. Even took a bunch of pictures of the process.

IMO, the dealer is very reputable, but also had little knowledge of the Leaf - I still get coupons for oil changes.
2012 Leaf SL; 46,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

GerryAZ
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Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:47 pm

The warranty guide is clear about the battery test requirement. We can argue about whether Nissan can legally deny battery repair/replacement under warranty if the annual tests have not been performed, but some of us that may benefit from warranty coverage are not willing to take that chance. It might be possible to argue the issue because one cannot go to an independent shop for the tests and having or not having the tests probably would not change the cost of repairs (unless malfunction of the lithium battery controller caused cell damage over time or weak cells lead to problems that could be minimized by addressing them early), but I will have the test done each year and point out the requirement shown in the manual when the question is raised.

FWIW, the battery test on my 2015 in January did not result in any action from Nissan even though there are several weak cells (based upon Leaf Spy cell voltage graphs) that are limiting usable range. I mentioned reduced range and possible weak cells when I took the car in for the annual battery test, but the conclusion was no battery warranty coverage at this time because the gradual capacity loss portion of the warranty expired at 60,000 miles.

Marktm,
Congratulations on getting the new battery. Even though my dealer is very familiar with LEAFs, I received periodic oil change coupons for the 2011 and I still get them occaisionally for the 2015. You are correct--the print out given to the customer is worthless, but Nissan gets a lot more information about the battery during the test.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:17 pm

GerryAZ wrote: FWIW, the battery test on my 2015 in January did not result in any action from Nissan even though there are several weak cells (based upon Leaf Spy cell voltage graphs) that are limiting usable range. I mentioned reduced range and possible weak cells when I took the car in for the annual battery test, but the conclusion was no battery warranty coverage at this time because the gradual capacity loss portion of the warranty expired at 60,000 miles.
Nissan is pathetic.

I presume you asked them what threshold cvli would trigger a defective pack warranty repair ?
Or is their position that weak cells are never a defect ?

Do your weak cells hobble maximum power output at a low SoC ?
That might be the way to convince them that the defect warranty is applicable.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Newbie with a low mileage 2015 wondering about range degradation.

Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:05 pm

Weak cells are considered a defect, but only if the voltage difference exceeds a certain threshold, under test conditions.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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