powersurge
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:22 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Nice to see an S advocate... I also have an S, and don't regret saving all that extra money one bit... They are just as capable as the top of the line ones, and are identical mechanically.
The only reason I discourage many people from getting an S is the resistance-only heater. In climates like mine (and even like yours) that means an automatic range loss of roughly 25% in mild Winter temps, compared to a heatpump-equipped Leaf. Otherwise I agree that the S is a great car for those looking for something other than tech.

Now, of course, it is easy to buy an SV with NO HEAT PUMP, so the situation has changed a bit.
I own the S, and I can tell you that it is not as bad as people say... The issue is to not BLAST heat. People are used the free heat in an regular car, and leave their control at the hottest and fastest fan during their entire drive. If you leave your heat at about 66-68 degrees and at fan speed 1 (lowest) (with the heated steering wheel and seats), there is only a modest decrease in range...

Also, people say that the upgraded heat pump works for temperatures above 24 degrees. Well, in the winter, that will not afford increased performance, as it is easy for winter temps to be below 24 degrees, and at that point all heaters will perform the same.

My report on this is yes, if you can get a used S for a good price, get it, do not pass it up for the heater. Also, If you are buying new, and can save thousands, the get the S model, and still have the identical car that those who have paid $5,000 more than you for the upgraded heater.....

Lemaign
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:22 am

shinybike52 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:28 pm
That lack of knowledge definitely wouldn't fly at my job! Just curious about other stories. Is there an entertaining thread on this that I missed?
The Leaf is actually quite popular where I live. It used to be the most frequently sighted electric vehicle, but now I'd say that place is going to the Tesla Model 3. There are still many Leafs on the road, though.

For us, our initial salesperson admitted that they weren't that familiar with the Leaf. They answered what questions they could, and then handed us over to another salesperson who is considered the Leaf specialist, I guess. They had decent knowledge but spent a lot of time offering the terrifying advice about how you could use ProPilot Assist to completely not look at the road and be on your phone, and how to fool the system into thinking that you were still actively engaged in driving. ProPilot is appropriately not marketed as fully autonomous driving by Nissan... I hope nobody else is taking that advice!

At the end of the sales process the manager - a very nice guy - handed us the No Charge to Charge card in its unopened packaging, and told us about how you can do one free charge per day. We hadn't been aware of the program, and were happy to hear about it. Yet I hit a snag when trying to register the card, which was because that program had ended... two months prior to our buying the car :? Hmm...

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Nubo
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:03 pm

goldbrick wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:05 pm
...The days I really wish I had a heat pump are the days when defrost is needed, such as a 35F snowy day. ...
In that case you can stop longing, because Defrost negates the advantage of the heat pump. In defrost mode the car runs heat and AC together to reduce humidity. Since the compressor system is being used for AC, the heat production must come from the resistance heater.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Lothsahn
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:48 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Nice to see an S advocate... I also have an S, and don't regret saving all that extra money one bit... They are just as capable as the top of the line ones, and are identical mechanically.
The only reason I discourage many people from getting an S is the resistance-only heater. In climates like mine (and even like yours) that means an automatic range loss of roughly 25% in mild Winter temps, compared to a heatpump-equipped Leaf. Otherwise I agree that the S is a great car for those looking for something other than tech.

Now, of course, it is easy to buy an SV with NO HEAT PUMP, so the situation has changed a bit.
Wait, they have SV's without a heat pump now?
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:12 pm

Wait, they have SV's without a heat pump now?

Yes, sadly. In order to save Nissan money, both the heatpump "hybrid" heater and the heater seats/steering wheel are part of an option package called either the "All-Weather Package" or the "Cold Weather Package" - I think the former. So as I could have predicted had they asked me, cars originally destined for California and Arizona are now being sold in Minnesota and the snowy East coast. So a reminder to Leaf shoppers in climates with Winter: make sure that the car you get has that package!

The S also has an option package with the same name. It does NOT add a heat pump. It adds the heated front seats and steering wheel, and a duct to the rear seats.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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SalisburySam
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:57 am

As others have said, the salesperson is not there to be a vehicle information resource, they are there to read you and as quickly as possible have you sign a contract for something. In addition, the LEAF is a small portion of sales at most Nissan dealers. My local dealer no longer even sells or advertises them. Their website lists all new/used inventory but the model “LEAF” doesn’t even appear in the search boxes. I can still get service there but if I really, really, really wanted to buy one, they offer to order it though they suggest another dealer in a larger city. Amazing how the LEAF seems to have fallen off the charts.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

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shinybike52
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:18 am

SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:57 am
My local dealer no longer even sells or advertises them. Their website lists all new/used inventory but the model “LEAF” doesn’t even appear in the search boxes. I can still get service there but if I really, really, really wanted to buy one, they offer to order it though they suggest another dealer in a larger city. Amazing how the LEAF seems to have fallen off the charts.
This is so sad to me for lots of reasons... From my perspective, friends in my circle (we're all millennials) are increasingly making the move to EVs. One is waffling between a new LEAF and a new Tesla, and another is definitely buying a new Tesla 3. Sure, I could be in a bubble, but I really doubt that. If Nissan wants to snap up this rising crop of EV drivers, they've got to up their game.

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SalisburySam
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:43 am

shinybike52 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:18 am
SalisburySam wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:57 am
My local dealer no longer even sells or advertises them. Their website lists all new/used inventory but the model “LEAF” doesn’t even appear in the search boxes. I can still get service there but if I really, really, really wanted to buy one, they offer to order it though they suggest another dealer in a larger city. Amazing how the LEAF seems to have fallen off the charts.
This is so sad to me for lots of reasons... From my perspective, friends in my circle (we're all millennials) are increasingly making the move to EVs. One is waffling between a new LEAF and a new Tesla, and another is definitely buying a new Tesla 3. Sure, I could be in a bubble, but I really doubt that. If Nissan wants to snap up this rising crop of EV drivers, they've got to up their game.
Totally agree, but there is no evidence that Nissan is in any meaningfully competitive way upping their game that I can see. They have introduced some new driver assist goodies, and the new LEAF's range is far better than my 2012's, but for me and others I speak with, it's too little too late. As someone who owns a LEAF and a Model 3, the Model 3 is the vehicle that could and did replace my last ICE car. My LEAF was the introduction to EV's for me 8 years ago and while it still has some advantages over the Model 3 (heated steering wheel, cloth seats, easier ingress/egress), I don't see anything on the LEAFy horizon that would taunt me to return to Nissan. Nissan rode the profitability curve of its early-mover advantage in the EV space rather than reinvesting in massive improvements, and now that others have caught up and moved beyond, there appears to be no corporate will to truly compete. Many of us on this forum bemoan that fact, thinking about what could have been if the 2019 LEAF had been delivered back in 2014 or even 2015 instead of the ones that were delivered with, to me, minor upgrades at best.

By the way, if you and/or your friends do buy a Tesla, use an owner's referral code at the time of order to gain whatever freebie is offered. As I write this, you/they could get 2000 miles of free supercharging, recently upped from 1000 (still a nice freebie). And if you are so generously inclined, my referral code is in my signature below. And before you ask, yes, it can be used multiple times.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

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Lemaign
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:44 pm

SalisburySam wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:43 am
Nissan rode the profitability curve of its early-mover advantage in the EV space rather than reinvesting in massive improvements, and now that others have caught up and moved beyond, there appears to be no corporate will to truly compete. Many of us on this forum bemoan that fact, thinking about what could have been if the 2019 LEAF had been delivered back in 2014 or even 2015 instead of the ones that were delivered with, to me, minor upgrades at best.
I've been watching EVs with interest but only recently bought one (a Leaf being our first). You've been with Nissan and have owned an EV for longer than I have, and I respect that. I just felt the need to speak a bit to defend Nissan.

It's true that they're not pursuing EVs aggressively, but compared to the rest of the automotive world I think they deserve a ton of praise. Looking at it by company, starting with other Japanese automakers, Nissan is really the only game in town for EVs:

Toyota stubbornly went the way of hydrogen fuel cell technology instead of electric vehicles, and their plug-in Prius (which was offered on and off over its generations) never really competed fully with the Chevrolet Volt on electric range. Even now, the Prius Prime is closer to half the range of the Chevrolet Volt than not. They've now announced that they're going to bump up their plans for electrification of their fleet, but their forecast is still for the mid-2020's to have vehicles out.

Honda now has an electric vehicle, but the driving range is about the same as the original Leaf. (Of note, their website for their EV compares it directly to the Leaf.)

Mitsubishi also had an all-electric vehicle around the same time as the original Leaf in the form of the really odd-looking Miev (and I say that even comparing it to the original Leaf), also around the same total range, but that was discontinued. Rumor is that Mitsubishi might get back into the EV game with a more serious offering soon.

Suzuki isn't a major player in the US market; it seems their electric vehicles will be focused toward India. They don't have any yet.

How about other car companies?

Ford has an all-electric truck in the works but is otherwise missing on the EV scene; if I remember right they had one plugin hybrid.

Chevrolet gets major points with the Volt and Bolt. I can't fault them there, other than being slow with the Bolt.

VW is now seemingly taking electrification more seriously, after being totally absent (and perhaps prompted by getting caught with the diesel emissions scandal).

BMW has the i3, which is in the same class as the original Leaf. I guess they get some creativity points for having a unique solution for their long-range version: having a gas engine that acted purely as a portable generator. Not really what people want for an electric vehicle though...

Mercedes has some big plans but again doesn't have anything now.

For the Korean car makers, Kia and Hyundai both have one option, which is now what I'd consider around the level of the current Leaf.

Tesla puts all of these companies to shame, of course. From the start they had the range, power, and design. They've only been advancing from there.

Meanwhile Nissan had the Leaf, and while it took them a while to make it a more serious contender, they've kept at it. Sure, they're lacking an actively cooled battery, but for range and power they've got it. Tesla absolutely puts them to shame, too, but compared to the other established auto makers Nissan has been doing an admirable job. In addition to the Leaf they have their electric-powered utility van (currently not sold in the US), based off of the Leaf's drivetrain and battery. And now we have rumors of a Rogue or Rogue-like EV that would have a range more in line with Teslas.

I've read various analyses of why most auto-makers are so slow with electrification, and there are some good explanations. It would explain why Tesla is able to do what they do, too. I'm disappointed in the major automakers, and while there is some disappointment for Nissan too, I also want to give credit where it's due. Sure, if you exclude Tesla then the bar is set pretty darn low, but I'd say that Nissan passed over it with some clearance. Hopefully they'll pick up the pace.

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SalisburySam
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Re: Newbie, 2017 Leaf S, So excited! But why the clueless sales ppl?

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:19 am

Lemaign wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:44 pm
SalisburySam wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:43 am
Nissan rode the profitability curve of its early-mover advantage in the EV space rather than reinvesting in massive improvements, and now that others have caught up and moved beyond, there appears to be no corporate will to truly compete. Many of us on this forum bemoan that fact, thinking about what could have been if the 2019 LEAF had been delivered back in 2014 or even 2015 instead of the ones that were delivered with, to me, minor upgrades at best.
I've been watching EVs with interest but only recently bought one (a Leaf being our first). You've been with Nissan and have owned an EV for longer than I have, and I respect that. I just felt the need to speak a bit to defend Nissan.

It's true that they're not pursuing EVs aggressively, but compared to the rest of the automotive world I think they deserve a ton of praise. Looking at it by company, starting with other Japanese automakers, Nissan is really the only game in town for EVs:

Nissan had the Leaf, and while it took them a while to make it a more serious contender, they've kept at it. Sure, they're lacking an actively cooled battery, but for range and power they've got it. Tesla absolutely puts them to shame, too, but compared to the other established auto makers Nissan has been doing an admirable job. In addition to the Leaf they have their electric-powered utility van (currently not sold in the US), based off of the Leaf's drivetrain and battery. And now we have rumors of a Rogue or Rogue-like EV that would have a range more in line with Teslas.

I've read various analyses of why most auto-makers are so slow with electrification, and there are some good explanations. It would explain why Tesla is able to do what they do, too. I'm disappointed in the major automakers, and while there is some disappointment for Nissan too, I also want to give credit where it's due. Sure, if you exclude Tesla then the bar is set pretty darn low, but I'd say that Nissan passed over it with some clearance. Hopefully they'll pick up the pace.
Great overview of the EV landscape...I really appreciate the time you took to discuss this. And I agree with you: Nissan is better than the average of what is out there sans Tesla. My whining is not so much to slam the current LEAF but to think about what might have been. I understand and give NIssan a lot of credit for entering the EVsphere with a very nice product in some ways alike but in many ways totally unlike the rest of its vehicle offerings. This was a courageous move in my opinion, and I mean that seriously, not in the silly sense that Apple’s elimination of the headphone jack was touted by them as “courageous.” And I understand why one vehicle that represents only a very small fraction of overall revenue, a larger fraction of headaches, and today not much love from at least my local dealership may not get the corporate investment attention I think it deserved and deserves today.

I truly hope that the concern the two youngest generations seem to have for our planet results in EV’s continuing to develop and proliferate. I believe Nissan can play whatever role they want, but I still question their commitment. Tesla is obviously all in, most of the other manufacturers you mention have dipped a toe in the very-expensive-for-them churning waters, US manufacturers currently focus on compliance vehicles to support their other products while hedging their bets a bit with investment in Rivian (Ford) and the Bolt (GM), and Nissan is the only other big (by EV standards) player. Interesting aside: my local Chevy dealer has no Bolts, and has only sold a handful of them all to special customer orders, so not much love there either.

So yes, Nissan’s deservedly gets a lot of credit for their pioneering work and for continuing to play in this space. I wish it had been more. Maybe it will be.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

Tesla Model 3: Long Range Rear Wheel Drive | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 11,500 miles
Get 1000 miles free Supercharging: https://ts.la/john70942

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