Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:25 am

I don't recall who else on this board had experience with FCEV's (nor what their experience was), but this tesla owner has personal experience that directly refutes the whole 5-minute to refuel claim:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/4768152/

"The actual pumping of hydrogen into the car may take only 5 minutes, but it is problem if cars are filled back to back as the gas has to be pressurized and chilled - so we learnt quickly that if there were more than 2 cars in line ahead of us at the filling station, you might as well leave because the pump goes offline for 10-15 minutes after 2-3 cars are filled. Even in the dry weather of southern California, the pump nozzles ice up due to the cooling - sometimes it will get stuck due to the ice. We keep a towel in the car to wipe off the condensation/ice and to hold the freezing nozzles."

So there's a physical limit (fuel dispensing) of being able to serve no more than 3 cars per 25 min interval per station. What a royal waste of resources!

Edit: Just realized that areas like Georgia and Florida can forget about filling cars back to back, as the nozzles will probably ice up after each filling session!
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:39 pm

As has previously been noted, first gen retail stations had issues doing back-to-back fills. IIRR, the current standard for larger dispensers is something like 8 back-to-back fills/hour. I'm pretty sure I posted a link to that up-topic, but don't remember if the info was in an article about the station operator, the company producing the station equipment, or the standard itself.

Re nozzle icing, found this on a CAFCP webinar from Oct. 2018:

"Is CaFCP working with equipment providers to develop a fuel cell nozzle that doesn't freeze up?

We first talked about the frozen nozzle problem in October 2017. Hydrogen is cooled to -40°C so it can be quickly dispensed. Cold hydrogen turns moisture in the air into frost on the nozzle and receptacle. Sometimes the frost becomes ice—particularity after back-to-back fills—and the cold metal of the nozzle latching mechanism freezes.

WEH and Walther, the companies that manufacture most nozzles are working with automakers and station developers to find solutions. Some stations have new nozzles and other stations have mechanisms to dislodge or dry water that might be between the “teeth” inside the nozzle. Development continues.

If the nozzle does freeze to the car, don’t pour water on it or twist it back and forth to try to force it off the car. You may have to wait a minute or two for the temperature of the nozzle to warm up enough to remove it from the receptacle."

IDK if current designs have fully solved the problem, but it doesn't sound like it's technically all that difficult. Cost of (renewable) H2 remains the major issue to be solved.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:19 pm

GCC:
Hiringa Energy and Mitsui & Co. to pursue hydrogen-related commercial projects in New Zealand

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... ringa.html

. . . Hiringa Energy is developing hydrogen production projects using electrolysis. Hiringa is also developing new renewable electricity generation for green hydrogen that can displace the use of fossil fuels for transport and industrial feedstock.

Through the strategic alliance agreement, Mitsui secures access to participate in multiple hydrogen projects developed by Hiringa including the JV project with Ballance Agri-nutrients and Hiringa’s nationwide refueling network, which will see hydrogen refueling stations come online throughout 2021. . . .

In forming this strategic alliance, both companies are working towards a common goal of creating a viable domestic hydrogen economy and export opportunities. The parties have been discussing the potential of hydrogen in New Zealand since 2017, when Mitsui learned of the New Zealand government’s strong aspirations for green hydrogen initiatives and Hiringa’s activities.

The strategic alliance builds on the New Zealand Government’s $19.9-million funding investment announcement into Hiringa’s Joint Venture with Ballance Agri-Nutrients earlier this year—a more than $50-million project to create green hydrogen at Ballance’s Kapuni plant in South Taranaki—and support from Hiringa’s seed investors, including Sir Stephen Tindall via his investment company K One W One.

The New Zealand and Japanese Governments have signed a Memorandum of Cooperation on hydrogen in 2018 to start the transition to a hydrogen economy to reduce emissions and improve energy security.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:37 pm

I finally saw Hyundai Nexo FCEV in the wild yesterday. Was parked near where I was picking up some food. I've never seen one outside of an auto show before.

Here in Nor Cal, most of the FCEV sightings (very few) are Mirais and a tiny # of Clarity FCEVs.

'19 Bolt Premier
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:31 pm

I've seen a few Nexos out and about, but I'd say it's about a 50/50 split Mirai/Clarity for me. It sounds like I see them more often than you. Whether that's due to my being on/near a major route leading to an H2 station 1.9 mi. away, there are more of them here, or I'm just paying more attention to them I can't say.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11957
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:42 pm

All GCC:
Ways2H collaborates with Ford, Bacon & Davis to build waste-to-H2 production facilities for clean fuel in US markets

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... ays2h.html

Ways2H Inc., a global producer of renewable hydrogen from the world’s worst waste streams, and Ford, Bacon & Davis, a leader in energy facility engineering, procurement and construction (EPC), are collaborating to design and to build waste-to-hydrogen facilities in California and other locations in the United States, to produce renewable hydrogen fuel for customers in the mobility and power generation sectors, and to offer alternative disposal options for waste processing and waste disposal companies.

The two companies plan to build the first US modular thermochemical waste-to-hydrogen production facility in California in the fourth quarter of 2020, with a pipeline of additional projects to follow in 2021.

The facilities will utilize the patented process developed through Ways2H’s ongoing joint venture with long-time technical partner, Japan Blue Energy (JBEC). JBEC has developed a biomass gasification process that uses alumina balls as a heat carrier. . . .

The Ways2H approach converts the world’s worst waste, including medical waste, municipal solid waste, plastics, agricultural residue and/or wastewater sludge into renewable hydrogen, with a net zero-carbon footprint.

The California project will be Ways2H’s second transportable, modular waste-to-hydrogen unit, after the company completes work on its first commercial modular waste-to-hydrogen project currently underway in Japan with JBEC, for the next Tokyo Olympics.

The first California waste-to-hydrogen production unit will be transportable, sized to fit in three 20-foot containers, process 1 ton of waste per day and produce 40 to 50 kilograms of hydrogen per day.

SunHydrogen extends research agreement with University of Iowa; development of Gen 2 multi-junction nanoparticles for hydrogen production

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... rogen.html

. . . As we are set to begin the production phase of our GEN 1 hydrogen panels, our research efforts will become increasingly focused on GEN 2. The University of Iowa has been a key and productive partner in the development of our GEN 1 panels. These three months of summer will get us closer to the final architecture for what will be a much more efficient and stable generation of our product. We will also be setting new milestones for the upcoming agreement in September. The knowledge we have gained through the GEN 1 process will accelerate our path to commercialization for GEN 2.

—Tim Young, CEO of SunHydrogen

The agreement currently covers the extensive development work to complete and commercialize the company’s GEN 2 nanoparticle hydrogen production panels that will deploy a much higher solar-to-hydrogen efficiency than GEN 1 at lower manufacturing cost. The work will continue to be led by Professor Dr. Syed Mubeen, (University of Iowa) and Dr. Joun Lee, (SunHydrogen). . . .

First hydrogen supply chain demonstration project using MCH to transport H2 starts

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... ahead.html

The Advanced Hydrogen Energy Chain Association for Technology Development (AHEAD) has started the world’s first international demonstration operation to transport hydrogen using methylcyclohexane. (Earlier post.)

This project is subsidized by the New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO) and will conduct a demonstration operation for the construction of an international hydrogen supply chain.

In the supply country, hydrogen, chemically fixed to toluene, is converted by a hydrogenation reaction into methylcyclohexane (MCH), a liquid at ambient temperature and pressure, for storage and transport. In the consumer country, hydrogen is extracted from MCH by a dehydrogenation reaction and supplied as hydrogen gas.[]

Methylcyclohexane (MCH) produced in Brunei Darussalam has already been transported to Japan by ship, separated into hydrogen and toluene at a dehydrogenation plant located on the Kawasaki city waterfront, and the hydrogen has been supplied to a gas turbine at the Mizue power station owned by Toa Oil Co. Ltd.

At this time, the process of transporting back the toluene separated by dehydrogenation from Japan to Brunei Darussalam and binding the toluene again with hydrogen has started. This would complete the hydrogen supply chain and would be the beginning of circular stable operation.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:48 pm

GCC:
Daimler Truck AG pushing forward with series production of fuel cells

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... lcell.html

. . . In close cooperation with their colleagues in Vancouver, Canada, and with the ongoing fuel cell development activities, the Stuttgart-based engineers are now transferring that experience to the direct preliminary stage of future series production. Investments are being made in new state-of-the-art facilities covering every process stage of fuel cell production: from membrane coating and stack manufacturing to the production of fuel cell units. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm

GCC:
NREL issues request for proposals for H2@Scale; up to $24M in funding

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... -nrel.html

. . . Up to $24 million in DOE funding is available for collaborative projects at national laboratories in two priority areas of R&D:

Hydrogen fueling technologies for medium- and heavy-duty fuel cell vehicles. Areas of interest include, but are not limited to, compressors, dispensers, cryogenic pumps, analysis to inform fueling station design, and heavy-duty fueling methods that can inform standards development organizations leading fueling protocol development.; and

Technical barriers to hydrogen blending in natural gas pipelines. Specific R&D priorities include materials compatibility, pipeline compressors, hydrogen combustion in end uses, technologies for separating hydrogen from blends downstream of injection, compatibility of blends with underground reservoirs, and techno-economic and life cycle analysis. . . .

Selected projects must include one or more National Laboratories and must also include partners from one or more of the following: industry, universities, non-profits, institutes, codes and standards organizations, associations, or other relevant stakeholders.

Proposals are due by Friday, 31 July 2020, at 7 p.m. Eastern Time.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11957
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:15 pm

GCR:
Jaguar Land Rover fuel-cell project to counter “diminishing returns” of batteries in big SUVs

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... n-big-suvs

. . . In a media Q&A following a company update Friday, Jaguar Land Rover’s executive director of product engineering, Nick Rogers, clarified the project reported earlier this week—and underscored that there’s real potential in it for something large in the company’s lineup, like the Range Rover.

“It’s absolutely really, really important; we truly believe that hydrogen has a real place and opportunity, particularly in the bigger vehicles,” said Rogers.

Partly, it has to do with the massive packs big SUVs need to be fitted with in order to achieve the long driving range luxury electric vehicle buyers are now expecting.

“In some of the bigger vehicles we’re diminishing returns, in terms of the amount of energy you can store in a battery for the weight of the car,” explained Rogers. “You're in a space where unfortunately, you're making the cars so much heavier, that you're then using so much of that energy just to cart that heavy weight about."

“And so the opportunity with hydrogen, where you skinny it down and effectively replace the internal combustion engine with a hydrogen machine that creates energy and then you use a battery pack, is very, very similar to a PHEV, and we would encourage that you would plug it in as well, take advantage of peak shaving, and all those other things,” he summed. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11957
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:27 pm

A negative view, via Forbes:
Why Hydrogen Will Never Be The Future Of Electric Cars

https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.o ... ic-cars%2F

Nevertheless, hydrogen still has niches where its main strengths – lightness and quick refuelling – give it a clear advantage. While you can fit your personal driving lifestyle around strategic battery charging stops, this is not ideal for a commercial vehicle that needs to run for very long periods and distances with only short waits to refuel. The weight of batteries for eight hours of continual usage would also be prohibitive in a train, for example. So, for industrial vehicles, hydrogen seems like a viable option, despite the inefficiency. Nevertheless, in the UK, there were only ten hydrogen-powered buses in service in March 2019, alongside 155 electric ones (with more arriving) and 3,669 hybrid ones. But a hydrogen double-decker is also coming into service in London, with hydrogen diggers and trains also already in use. Stock market darling Nikola Motor is working on hydrogen semi-trailer trucks alongside electric and hybrid variants.

still arguing that FCVs are the future of personal transport and the technology will take off in 2020. It’s likely that FCV energy supply-chain efficiency will be improved over time and more renewable energy sources used in hydrogen production. However, considering the number of BEVs already on the road, FCVs have lost this battle already and will never catch up. A BEV is a viable form of personal transportation right now in most developed Western nations. There are lots of options with over 200 miles of range, and Tesla TSLA has even hit 400 miles. There are charging points springing up all the time, with more than twice as many EV charging points in the UK as petrol stations. The battle for the future of green personal transportation is over, and battery electric vehicles have already won.
Where I disagree with him is his conclusion. As long as both techs remain reliant on subsidies and mandates, neither has won in the market. Only when customers don't have to be coerced/bribed to buy the product will one or both win.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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