GRA
Posts: 12877
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Tue May 11, 2021 4:58 pm

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:49 am

Who would better understand the Model T future, an early adopter of automobiles or someone that counted on his horse?
That's not the matter in question
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
I claim that I'm more able to understand the general public's point of view than many early adopters, who've already made the change
You might withdraw this statement. Rather than shoveling camels.

Seeing as how every survey confirms my view of the general public's attitude, why would I withdraw it?

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm

Which we've never had a disagreement on, so why keep making the point?
You keep insisting that the mainstream is the only thing that matters. I assert that niche markets matter especially during technology change.

I insist that only the mainstream can have large enough effects to matter.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm


See above for my point about when people are buying. I've never argued that a particular 'tech' may not be superior in a given niche, it's whether that niche matters to most potential customers.
"Most" isn't the goal at first. Getting a niche is.
Expanding the niche is next.
"Most" comes later.

I don't consider a decade of mass production, on top of another decade plus of a 'modern' BEV to be 'first'. We need to be well beyond the niche stage.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
PHEVs are a different niche. More complex than a BEV or an ICE, more expensive than an ICE at the beginning, more expensive than a BEV eventually. Likely appeal is during the transition, and later for edge cases.

Or, they may be one of the ultimate choices, depending on how things work out with H2/FCs, and syn/biofuels. It's simply too early to say right now.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm


As above, I've never disputed it. What I've said again and again is that BEVs currently lack the necessary properties to be mass market now, absent subsidies and/or mandates, and we have an acceptable interim tech that can move us towards the ultimate goal without requiring subsidies, given the right incentives.
PHEVs are subsidized now, removal of those subsidies would have large impact on their sales. You assure me you know exactly the incentives to replace those subsidies, expand the market to far bigger, and that those incentives are politically possible.

I doubt it.

I've listed the incentives that wouldbe more effective than the current ones, but I've always said that what's really needed in addition is to have a major effect is an increase in fuel taxes, either direct or on carbon. We know that's the one sure way to get people to switch.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm


I don't need ABRP, Plugshare shows me there's still no way to get there using QCs. Why do you think I monitor the EA, and before them the SC networks so closely? Tesla's shown Kalispell as "Coming soon" every year since at least 2017 if not a year or two before, and I see they've moved it back yet again to 2022 now.

EA has no plans to expand that way either, and Glacier is just one of the places I want to go that it's difficult or impossible for me to reach using QCs; L2 doesn't cut it. That leaves aside the time factor, as until I retire all enroute time has to be subtracted from my free time.
Overnight L2 is pretty nice. Wake up to a full charge, do your day, repeat as needed. Why wouldn't you like this? Not at all difficult. Sure, infrastructure isn't universal. Yet.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/314313

To my surprise, a possible trip in the etron as well. I wouldn't suggest relying on a single charger, but an overnight L2 or PlanB L2 might be realistic. Not impossible. Not difficult.

That assumes that you wish to overnight where there's an L2 charger. They don't exist where I want to overnight. Nor, usually, is there any source of electricity. On my Bolt trip last October, since I couldn't activate the EA QCs in Bridgeport I had to use the free L2s in Lee Vining. I had to spend the entire night there, camping illegally in a public park, while the car took 8 hrs. 36 min. charging to 100%. Lee Vining is only at 6,780', but I'd intended to sleep between 8-9,000' to start acclimatizing, as I intended to climb peaks over 13,000 ft. the next few days. Because I couldn't, I experienced some mild altitude sickness. It would have been far worse if fire smoke hadn't prevented me from doing the planned climb that first day.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
I claim that I'm more able to understand the general public's point of view than many early adopters, who've already made the change
You might withdraw this statement. Rather than shoveling camels.
Seeing as how every survey confirms my view of the general public's attitude, why would I withdraw it?
News flash from 1900: Survey of horse owners shows the automobile is a fad. Only 4% of horse owners are seriously thinking about trying an automobile.

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
You keep insisting that the mainstream is the only thing that matters. I assert that niche markets matter especially during technology change.
I insist that only the mainstream can have large enough effects to matter.
Ah, the mainstream isn't there in an instant. Everything takes time.

If you only think mainstream, you can't develop anything new. New starts with a niche.

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
"Most" isn't the goal at first. Getting a niche is.
Expanding the niche is next.
"Most" comes later.
I don't consider a decade of mass production, on top of another decade plus of a 'modern' BEV to be 'first'. We need to be well beyond the niche stage.
Patience, Grasshopper. Time is why everything doesn't happen at once.

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
PHEVs are a different niche. More complex than a BEV or an ICE, more expensive than an ICE at the beginning, more expensive than a BEV eventually. Likely appeal is during the transition, and later for edge cases.
Or, they may be one of the ultimate choices, depending on how things work out with H2/FCs, and syn/biofuels. It's simply too early to say right now.
Yes, PHEVs might be a long lasting use case. Unlikely to be a majority, due to higher cost, higher complexity and very low efficiency.

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm

As above, I've never disputed it. What I've said again and again is that BEVs currently lack the necessary properties to be mass market now, absent subsidies and/or mandates, and we have an acceptable interim tech that can move us towards the ultimate goal without requiring subsidies, given the right incentives.
PHEVs are subsidized now, removal of those subsidies would have large impact on their sales. You assure me you know exactly the incentives to replace those subsidies, expand the market to far bigger, and that those incentives are politically possible.

I doubt it.

I've listed the incentives that would be more effective than the current ones, but I've always said that what's really needed in addition is to have a major effect is an increase in fuel taxes, either direct or on carbon. We know that's the one sure way to get people to switch.
Are new fuel taxes politically possible today?

GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
I don't need ABRP, Plugshare shows me there's still no way to get there using QCs.
Glacier is just one of the places I want to go that it's difficult or impossible for me to reach using QCs; L2 doesn't cut it.
Overnight L2 is pretty nice. Wake up to a full charge, do your day, repeat as needed. Why wouldn't you like this? Not at all difficult. Sure, infrastructure isn't universal. Yet.
That assumes that you wish to overnight where there's an L2 charger. They don't exist where I want to overnight.
Wrong assumption gets wrong result almost every time. Let me fix it.

That assumes you are willing to overnight once where there's an L2 charger.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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GRA
Posts: 12877
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am

You might withdraw this statement. Rather than shoveling camels.
Seeing as how every survey confirms my view of the general public's attitude, why would I withdraw it?
News flash from 1900: Survey of horse owners shows the automobile is a fad. Only 4% of horse owners are seriously thinking about trying an automobile.

News flash from 2021. Sales show that BEVs and PHEVs continue to make up a tiny fraction of sales, exactly in line with the surveys.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
You keep insisting that the mainstream is the only thing that matters. I assert that niche markets matter especially during technology change.
I insist that only the mainstream can have large enough effects to matter.
Ah, the mainstream isn't there in an instant. Everything takes time.

If you only think mainstream, you can't develop anything new. New starts with a niche.

Yes, We KNOW. Please stop repeating the same cliche'. The issue is what it takes to 'cross' the chasm' from niche to mainstream, not whether or not we start with a niche. As of yet, we don't have what it takes.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
"Most" isn't the goal at first. Getting a niche is.
Expanding the niche is next.
"Most" comes later.
I don't consider a decade of mass production, on top of another decade plus of a 'modern' BEV to be 'first'. We need to be well beyond the niche stage.
Patience, Grasshopper. Time is why everything doesn't happen at once.

I've run out of patience with you, if all you've got to contribute are vacuous platitudes from '70s TV shows - presumably you aren't claiming to be Keye Luke or Philip Ahn, as they've both been dead for at least three decades, and my name is neither Kwai Chang or David, and I'm definitely not going to die accidently as a result of auto-erotic asphyxiation. :roll:

You've shown you're capable of making an rational argument so please do so, or claim victory/admit defeat and move on.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am
PHEVs are a different niche. More complex than a BEV or an ICE, more expensive than an ICE at the beginning, more expensive than a BEV eventually. Likely appeal is during the transition, and later for edge cases.
Or, they may be one of the ultimate choices, depending on how things work out with H2/FCs, and syn/biofuels. It's simply too early to say right now.
Yes, PHEVs might be a long lasting use case. Unlikely to be a majority, due to higher cost, higher complexity and very low efficiency.

Ultimate costs remain to be seen, and efficiency is low compared to BEVs, not ICEs. And we've found the low efficiency of ICEs perfectly acceptable for a century now, so that's not an automatic reason for rejection given the advantages. We'll just have to see how they compare relative to the other options.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am

PHEVs are subsidized now, removal of those subsidies would have large impact on their sales. You assure me you know exactly the incentives to replace those subsidies, expand the market to far bigger, and that those incentives are politically possible.

I doubt it.

I've listed the incentives that would be more effective than the current ones, but I've always said that what's really needed in addition is to have a major effect is an increase in fuel taxes, either direct or on carbon. We know that's the one sure way to get people to switch.
Are new fuel taxes politically possible today?
Here, major, no, as I've said. Minor, possibly, and that combined with incentives should help move the needle. Ultimately it will take mandates.

WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:44 am


Overnight L2 is pretty nice. Wake up to a full charge, do your day, repeat as needed. Why wouldn't you like this? Not at all difficult. Sure, infrastructure isn't universal. Yet.
That assumes that you wish to overnight where there's an L2 charger. They don't exist where I want to overnight.
Wrong assumption gets wrong result almost every time. Let me fix it.

That assumes you are willing to overnight once where there's an L2 charger.

And as stated, I'm not so willing, when another tech doesn't require that I do so, but provides me the freedom to overnight wherever I want to, instead of designing my trip around charging stops. And that's the mainstream's view of the relative 'convenience' of BEVs and ICEs (or FCEVs with the infrastructure) for trips. Until QCs are everywhere and BEVS charge a lot faster, they simply aren't as flexible and convenient for trips as the existing tech.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12877
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Wed May 12, 2021 7:46 pm

See https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... 93#p604293

for details of how CA plans to deal with PHEVs when phasing out ICEs in 2035. I'm generally a fan of the second change, although the wording's a bit unclear; if they mean you have to use all of the AER first with no option, then I'm against it. I'm against the first, but they're accepting comments until June 11th, and I definitely will add my own.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am

GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
News flash from 1900: Survey of horse owners shows the automobile is a fad. Only 4% of horse owners are seriously thinking about trying an automobile.
News flash from 2021. Sales show that BEVs and PHEVs continue to make up a tiny fraction of sales, exactly in line with the surveys.
News flash from 1910: Only about 100,000 cars sold. About 24 million horses in use. Automobiles are a tiny fraction and will never replace horses, as about 3 million horses added over the past 10 years, far more than automobiles produced. :roll:

GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
Are new fuel taxes politically possible today?
Here, major, no, as I've said.
Are continued subsidies for BEVs and PHEVs are politically possible?

Why demand a policy that isn't politically possible to replace a policy that has worked and is working?

GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:05 pm
That assumes that you wish to overnight where there's an L2 charger. They don't exist where I want to overnight.
Wrong assumption gets wrong result almost every time. Let me fix it.
That assumes you are willing to overnight once where there's an L2 charger.
And as stated, I'm not so willing, when another tech doesn't require that I do so, but provides me the freedom to overnight wherever I want to, instead of designing my trip around charging stops. And that's the mainstream's view of the relative 'convenience' of BEVs and ICEs (or FCEVs with the infrastructure) for trips. Until QCs are everywhere and BEVS charge a lot faster, they simply aren't as flexible and convenient for trips as the existing tech.
For trips.

Most driving is local, and BEVs are more flexible and convenient for local trips. As much of your driving isn't local, you are likely one of the last to switch to a BEV. Or perhaps one of the few to switch to PHEV or other higher cost alternatives to a BEV.

The relative convenience of BEVs vs ICE isn't fixed, as there are a lot more QC locations and BEVs are charging a lot faster. 150kW with the e-tron is amazing. The fact that I could, if I wanted to, take a trip to Glacier NP and only rely on L2 at the destination is amazing.

Transcontinental trips: ICE did it in 63 days... in 1903. The EV1 took 21 days in 1998.

And today? Record is a Porsche Taycan 4S in just 44 hours and 25 minutes.

https://insideevs.com/news/464763/porsc ... ll-record/

While ICE is still faster, at some point almost no one will care. Other than the traffic cops. The ICE record, disputed, is 26 hours and 38 minutes or average of 105 MPH.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 8:38 am

GRA wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:54 pm
WetEV wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:17 am
While I do pitch PHEVs to some people, I find that the "Trump crowd" used to be totally against them. They would listen to BEVs on two levels: speed and acceleration, like results of Pikes Peak hill climb, and low cost for electric trucks for local delivery. After the Texas freeze, I've sent some stuff on people that plugged their house into a Ford F150 with "Pro Power Onboard generator", 7.2 kW. If they weren't Chevy Truck people, they might have been interested. Instead, they asked the local Chevy dealer when Chevy was getting something like this. Which I think is a win.
Better than nothing, but IMO a waste of time to worry about them now, as there are numerous groups easier to convince at the moment.
Ah yes, and I've "sold" an electric to a "Trump crowd" type.

Ok, probably Home Depot did the actual sale. He bought an electric lawnmower. Like a BEV, an electric lawn mower is just more convenient. I talked to him about it before the pandemic, and he had a problem with his ICE mower this spring. He couldn't get it to work, and having a shop fixing it would take weeks, as they are backed up. I do some work for him at times (he is retired) and he pays in dungeness crab. I think he spends far more time boating than driving.

Unlike California, there is a reason to mow the grass here. Otherwise the blackberries will take over, and they are nasty thorny and aggressive. If you had a large property, which we don't, goats or sheep might be an alternative.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 8:55 am

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
The relative convenience of BEVs vs ICE isn't fixed, as there are a lot more QC locations and BEVs are charging a lot faster. 150kW with the e-tron is amazing. The fact that I could, if I wanted to, take a trip to Glacier NP and only rely on L2 at the destination is amazing.
If I can go into Canada, which I currently can't, I can make the trip without any L2 at all.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_u ... 947ce1cd76


Does rely on 50kW chargers, and L2 for one night would more convenient and both less daytime charging time and less driving time.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

GRA
Posts: 12877
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 4:34 pm

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
News flash from 1900: Survey of horse owners shows the automobile is a fad. Only 4% of horse owners are seriously thinking about trying an automobile.
News flash from 2021. Sales show that BEVs and PHEVs continue to make up a tiny fraction of sales, exactly in line with the surveys.
News flash from 1910: Only about 100,000 cars sold. About 24 million horses in use. Automobiles are a tiny fraction and will never replace horses, as about 3 million horses added over the past 10 years, far more than automobiles produced. :roll:

Which, as I've noted before, has nothing to do with the current situation - see horses and camels.

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm
Are new fuel taxes politically possible today?
Here, major, no, as I've said.
Are continued subsidies for BEVs and PHEVs are politically possible?

Why demand a policy that isn't politically possible to replace a policy that has worked and is working?

Because it hasn't worked and isn't working, and is expensive to boot. I imagine you know one of the definitions of insanity.

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:13 pm

Wrong assumption gets wrong result almost every time. Let me fix it.
That assumes you are willing to overnight once where there's an L2 charger.
And as stated, I'm not so willing, when another tech doesn't require that I do so, but provides me the freedom to overnight wherever I want to, instead of designing my trip around charging stops. And that's the mainstream's view of the relative 'convenience' of BEVs and ICEs (or FCEVs with the infrastructure) for trips. Until QCs are everywhere and BEVS charge a lot faster, they simply aren't as flexible and convenient for trips as the existing tech.
For trips.

Most driving is local, and BEVs are more flexible and convenient for local trips.

Unless, of course, you don't have guaranteed charging. See the "people going back to ICEs" topic for a survey of same.


WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
As much of your driving isn't local, you are likely one of the last to switch to a BEV. Or perhaps one of the few to switch to PHEV or other higher cost alternatives to a BEV.

No, I'll be switching to a ZEV before mainstream users. because I'm ideologically motivated to do so. It's now too close to that time for me to get a PHEV, unless drop-in net zero syn/biofuels become practical in the required quantities. A PHFCEV would also work and would probably be my first choice assuming both battery and H2/FC costs decline similarly.

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
The relative convenience of BEVs vs ICE isn't fixed, as there are a lot more QC locations and BEVs are charging a lot faster. 150kW with the e-tron is amazing. The fact that I could, if I wanted to, take a trip to Glacier NP and only rely on L2 at the destination is amazing.

Amazing? You're easily impressed, seeing as how we've had mass-produced BEVs for a decade now.

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
Transcontinental trips: ICE did it in 63 days... in 1903. The EV1 took 21 days in 1998.

And today? Record is a Porsche Taycan 4S in just 44 hours and 25 minutes.

https://insideevs.com/news/464763/porsc ... ll-record/

While ICE is still faster, at some point almost no one will care. Other than the traffic cops. The ICE record, disputed, is 26 hours and 38 minutes or average of 105 MPH.

Of course at some point no one will care, but we aren't anywhere near that point yet with BEVs. I'm personally willing, although certainly not eager, to allow charging stops to control where I eat, but not where I sleep, and the mainstream sees no reason to even go that far.

BTW, Jackson & Crocker's X-C trip was done without paved (and for some of the way, any) roads at all outside of a few cities. It could have been done in 10 days easy with pavement, probably 4-6 days if they didn't have to make frequent stops to repair the numerous flats/change tires, given the poor longevity and durability of tires in those days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Nelson_Jackson

When I can do a coast-to-coast drive in 3 days or less via any route I wish in a BEV or FCEV that's priced at/below $25k, then they'll be completely mainstream and we can kiss fossil-fueled ICEs goodbye.
Last edited by GRA on Thu May 13, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12877
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 4:39 pm

WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:55 am
WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
The relative convenience of BEVs vs ICE isn't fixed, as there are a lot more QC locations and BEVs are charging a lot faster. 150kW with the e-tron is amazing. The fact that I could, if I wanted to, take a trip to Glacier NP and only rely on L2 at the destination is amazing.
If I can go into Canada, which I currently can't, I can make the trip without any L2 at all.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_u ... 947ce1cd76


Does rely on 50kW chargers, and L2 for one night would more convenient and both less daytime charging time and less driving time.

And when I can go the places I want, via the route I want, when I want, in the time I want, without having to pre-plan the trip as if I'm flying a private plane, and am able to change my destination, route etc. at a moment's notice without needing to give it any more thought than that, then BEVs will be practical for almost everyone (bar those who go waaaay off-pavement).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu May 13, 2021 9:03 pm

GRA wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 4:34 pm
WetEV wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 am
GRA wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:57 pm

News flash from 2021. Sales show that BEVs and PHEVs continue to make up a tiny fraction of sales, exactly in line with the surveys.
News flash from 1910: Only about 100,000 cars sold. About 24 million horses in use. Automobiles are a tiny fraction and will never replace horses, as about 3 million horses added over the past 10 years, far more than automobiles produced. :roll:

Which, as I've noted before, has nothing to do with the current situation - see horses and camels.
You, of course, know better than me. There isn't any point in me continuing to write.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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