indyflick
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:19 am

Here are a couple of additional articles I located. Who Says the Tea Party is Not a Religious Movement? Who Says the Tea Party isn’t a Religious Movement?, Part II

I know evnow disagrees with me on this, but here's how I recall the history. During the 2008 RNC convention, Ron Paul and the Republican Libertarians held their own convention next door called Rally for the Republic. This, I believe, was the genesis for the Tea Party Movement. After the Rally for the Republic, they developed the Contract From America. The start of the document reads... We, the citizens of the United States of America, call upon those seeking to represent us in public office to sign the Contract from America and by doing so commit to support each of its agenda items on behalf of individual liberty, limited government, and economic freedom.

As you would expect, that has Libertarian all over it. Dick Armey's FreedomWorks (with Koch Bros financing) then promoted this and it became the Tea Party Movement. So my point is that somewhere along the way, the religious right co-oped the movement and the speculation is that it was the Mormons and a lot of Mormon financing. The individual liberty pillar is now gone from the movement. They now advocate, for example, zero tolerance on abortion.

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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:19 pm

Tea Party - the US version of the Afghan Taliban, a narrow-minded minority that wants the rest of the country to do it their way.
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:41 pm

indyflick wrote:... individual liberty, limited government, and economic freedom.
The "individual liberty" that American "Libertarians" talk about is not the same as what is recognized as such all over the world. For eg. the right-wing libertarians have always had fairly racist ideas. Infact I suspect one of the personal liberties they want is being able to descriminate based on race. It is almost as if they look at individual liberty in a very selfish way - concerned only about liberties for the self than for everyone.
As you would expect, that has Libertarian all over it. Dick Armey's FreedomWorks (with Koch Bros financing) then promoted this and it became the Tea Party Movement. So my point is that somewhere along the way, the religious right co-oped the movement and the speculation is that it was the Mormons and a lot of Mormon financing. The individual liberty pillar is now gone from the movement. They now advocate, for example, zero tolerance on abortion.
I think the co-opting happenned with people like Palin (not with Romney). So, not denominational - just the religious extremists.

BTW, note that Ron Paul has similar views on abortion.

http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul.htm

It would be an interesting exercise to compare the views of someone like Ron Paul with Glenn Greenwald, who coincidentally has this to say about Tea Party today.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
The "tea party" movement is, in my view, a mirror image of the Republican Party generally. There are some diverse, heterodox factions which compose a small, inconsequential minority of it (various libertarian, independent, and Reagan Democrat types), but it is dominated -- in terms of leadership, ideology, and the vast majority of adherents -- by the same set of beliefs which have long shaped the American Right: Reagan-era domestic policies, blinding American exceptionalism and nativism, fetishizing American wars, total disregard for civil liberties, social and religious conservatism, hatred of the minority-Enemy du Jour (currently: Muslims), allegiance to self-interested demagogic leaders, hidden exploitation by corporatist masters, and divisive cultural tribalism. Other than the fact that (1) it is driven (at least in part) by genuine citizen passion and engagement, and (2) represents a justifiable rebellion against the Washington and GOP establishments, I see little good in it and much potential for bad. To me, it's little more than the same extremely discredited faction which drove the country into the ground for the last decade, merely re-branded under a new name.
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:00 pm

Yodrak wrote:Tea Party - the US version of the Afghan Taliban, a narrow-minded minority that wants the rest of the country to do it their way.
Wow! IMHO, the above statement is ludicrous. I haven't seen the Tea Party advocate cutting off people's limbs, stoning people, preventing women from displaying their faces in public, driving cars, etc.
get real, man! :(
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:46 pm

Notice that I did not compare what the two entities advocate, I compared their intolerance and disdain for the rest of society.

Agreed that they have different agendas, and different approaches to enforcing their agenda. However, the intent of enforing their own agenda on everyone else is something that they have very much in common. Both are extremist organizations, corrupting the legitimate goals of the entities that they purport to represent - Republican politics in the case of the Teaparty, the religion of Islam in the case of the Taliban.

Please read what I wrote and do not make substitutions.
derkraut wrote:
Yodrak wrote:Tea Party - the US version of the Afghan Taliban, a narrow-minded minority that wants the rest of the country to do it their way.
Wow! IMHO, the above statement is ludicrous. I haven't seen the Tea Party advocate cutting off people's limbs, stoning people, preventing women from displaying their faces in public, driving cars, etc.
get real, man! :(
Last edited by Yodrak on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:47 pm

no but they do want to get into peoples' moral choices.
I see the correlation as to what could happen if these
people got some real power in their hands. "Freedom
of Religion" also includes freedom FROM religion and a
right to sovereignty over ones own body.
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:02 pm

Yodrak wrote:Tea Party - the US version of the Afghan Taliban, a narrow-minded minority that wants the rest of the country to do it their way.
Tealiban Party??? I get it! They really are two sides of the same coin. Too funny. :lol:
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:59 am

http://www.edf.org/NoOnProp23
Pledge to vote No:
https://secure2.edf.org/site/Advocacy?c ... k5.app306b
California's world-renowned environmental leadership and plans for a clean energy future are under attack and we need your help to stop it.

Two Texas oil companies are spending millions of dollars to ramrod through a dangerous and deceptive initiative on this November's ballot.
The Big Polluters Attack

Flush with victory in Washington, DC, where they killed national climate legislation this year, many of the same dirty energy forces are turning their sights west.

Leading the charge are Texas oil giants Tesoro and Valero Energy Corporation. They are spending millions to promote their dirty energy ballot initiative this November, Proposition 23.

This bill would effectively nullify California's landmark climate and energy law, AB32, which passed four years ago with bipartisan support.

We will all lose if these oil barons win.

California's leadership has inspired climate action in states across the nation. As the 8th largest economy in the world, California is a clean energy market mover and leader.

When AB32 goes into effect in 2012, it will spur energy innovation and create thousands of American clean energy jobs -- both in California and around the country -- jobs that will probably otherwise go overseas.

And, most importantly, AB32 will prove once and for all that solving the climate crisis and growing the economy go hand-in-hand.

The big polluters know this and that is why they are investing so much in trying to undo California's climate and clean energy progress.

We must defeat their Dirty Energy Prop 23 initiative and continue our progress toward a cleaner, greener economy.

For the planet, for the health of your children, and for our economic future, please take action today.
If we can defeat Prop 23, we will continue proving to the world how environmental policies spur innovation, create jobs and give us a competitive advantage to compete in an $8 trillion global clean energy market.

For the planet, the health of your children, and our economic future, let's stand together to VOTE NO on Prop 23.

Thanks for all you do,
Environmental Defense Action Fund

indyflick
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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:31 pm

Thanks for the pointers Andy. California has had this "Democracy by Initiative" process for over a hundred years. But for the last 20 years or so, special interests have tried to exploit it in every election. Sometimes the wording is such that no means yes or yes means no. Or they tie their crap to something people are interested in. This one, for example, is tied to full employment. Often these ballot initiatives are so long and complex you can't understand them. More and more of them (such as this one) are from out of state. They do deceptive advertising such as send "official Democratic voter ballot" So it would say something like.. Senate (Boxer), Governor (Brown), and Prop 23 (YES). Which, of course is BS. The Republicans did that last election as well tying to get a bunch of ring-wing judges elected. Judges don't show party affiliation. So seeing a bunch of democrat politicians listed along with the right wingnut judges was meant to deceive the uninformed voter. I always go out to the Democratic Party of California site for their recommendations. Basically the California initiatives process is broken and needs to be reformed completely.

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Re: Prop 23 in Calif to roll back global warming law

Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:37 pm

I hope this doesn't get voted along party lines - and is seen for what it is.

BTW, we have had similar ballot initiative problems in WA. But in CA it is completely broken. You really need a new constitution.
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