indyflick
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:18 am

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:01 am

Hey I was reading somewhere that the EMF from EVs cures cancer. Anybody else hearing that?

User avatar
EVDRIVER
Moderator
Posts: 6753
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:32 am

indyflick wrote:Hey I was reading somewhere that the EMF from EVs cures cancer. Anybody else hearing that?

YEs- like those energy bracelets they sell on TV.

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4780
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:46 am

AndyH wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:Probably a lot of truth to that article.
The problem is that there really isn't. I'm nearing the end of my 2nd year on the road with a lithium iron phosphate pack. I import LiFePo4 cells from Taiwan and have test reports that show both 'in use' cycling and 'storage' capacity loss - and none of my experiences or data from the battery manufacturers show the amount of degradation this gent suggests is certain.

It's FUD, plain and simple, from someone that's so far on the 'inside' of a paradigm that he can't see the outside world. We might as well be trying to get someone with no depth perception to tell us which object is farther away - they just can't and there's nothing we can do to change that.
It's all conjecture until the cars get into the hands of real world users. Only then will we know just how much the "less than optimal" conditions or aging of the battery cuts into the range. We do see a lot of backpedaling on the range though. Maybe Nissan is being overly conservative for CYA purposes... face it nobody will complain that their range is greater than expected.

EVangelists are so stoked about this car they won't care if they have to push it the last three miles to get home. When you get past that self-selected group you're going to find a lot of people in the sun belt who use their AC's most days, drive at highways speeds at least part of the time, and occasionally go up a hill. Those folks are going to be disappointed/inconvenienced if they have longer daily commutes.

My old Norelco razor used to go two weeks on a charge, now it's down to three days... which is only two days more than I need :-)
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:07 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
AndyH wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:Probably a lot of truth to that article.
The problem is that there really isn't. I'm nearing the end of my 2nd year on the road with a lithium iron phosphate pack. I import LiFePo4 cells from Taiwan and have test reports that show both 'in use' cycling and 'storage' capacity loss - and none of my experiences or data from the battery manufacturers show the amount of degradation this gent suggests is certain.

It's FUD, plain and simple, from someone that's so far on the 'inside' of a paradigm that he can't see the outside world. We might as well be trying to get someone with no depth perception to tell us which object is farther away - they just can't and there's nothing we can do to change that.
It's all conjecture until the cars get into the hands of real world users. Only then will we know just how much the "less than optimal" conditions or aging of the battery cuts into the range. We do see a lot of backpedaling on the range though. Maybe Nissan is being overly conservative for CYA purposes... face it nobody will complain that their range is greater than expected.

EVangelists are so stoked about this car they won't care if they have to push it the last three miles to get home. When you get past that self-selected group you're going to find a lot of people in the sun belt who use their AC's most days, drive at highways speeds at least part of the time, and occasionally go up a hill. Those folks are going to be disappointed/inconvenienced if they have longer daily commutes.

My old Norelco razor used to go two weeks on a charge, now it's down to three days... which is only two days more than I need :-)
Sorry man - not trying to pick - but neither your razor or 'EVangelists' has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I drive a lithium-filled EV. I bench-test cells and build lithium packs, and assemble/test/evaluate battery/pack management systems for lithium. I have test data from the engineers that make the cells I use, and have compared this data with other cells in the lithium family.

Your razor likely has NiCad. Not applicable. The subject of this post is obviously out of touch with even 5-8 year old lithium tech - aside from his agenda.

Yes - there is degradation both in use and when sitting but it's no where near what the FUD process is suggesting.

A brand new lithium cell, for example, shows a break-in capacity growth. A cell might start between 95 and 105% capacity, then gain capacity for the first couple hundred cycles. Only then does capacity start to degrade. Cell manufacturers can do real-time and accelerated cell cycling and aging - and they know what the cells will do and how they'll degrade. Those are the realities of the cells.

FUD is FUD is FUD.

smkettner
Posts: 7501
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:17 am

We all know that the stone age did not end for lack of stones
The first metal tools were surely more costly and had limitations
This cave man just cannot see that his world is ending-changing
May take a few generations but the change has begun, JMHO
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

indyflick
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:18 am

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:27 am

AndyH wrote:Sorry man - not trying to pick - but neither your razor or 'EVangelists' has anything to do with what I'm talking about.
Exactly! What's infuriating for me from the FUDzilla's is that they act like we have zero experience with any aspect of EV technology whatsoever. I tell people all the time, just because something is new to you doesn't mean it's actually new. There have been thousands of EVs on the road for over the last decade, and they keep improving. The Nissan LEAF scales this to the hundreds of thousands and includes a lot of useful technology. We know from these earliest adopters that they adjust immediately to the range, the performance, the extreme weather, etc. There's hard data, the sample size is large enough, we don't have to speculate. If you're speculating, launching turd grenades, and dumping FUD into any blog which mentions EVs then it's self evident what your motives in fact are.

One quick question, does the LEAF pack actually have more than 24 kWh capacity, but only "exposes" the 24 kWh so it can virtually add capacity to make up for the loss over time? I'm not sure were I got that idea, but somehow I thought that's how it worked. For part of my career I worked on semiconductor flash memory. You include extra capacity in flash memory because flash breaks down with use over time. The controller does "ware leveling" to spread the utilization over a wider area of the memory. Over time, as it normally degrades, you allocate memory from the spare pool to keep the total capacity constant. I thought they were using that same sort of strategy with the LEAF pack.

JasonT
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:42 am
Location: AZ

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:43 am

indyflick wrote:One quick question, does the LEAF pack actually have more than 24 kWh capacity, but only "exposes" the 24 kWh so it can virtually add capacity to make up for the loss over time?
I believe the only answer we have to this right now is that 24 kWh is the capacity made available to the end user and that there is some headroom above that. I don't believe we've been told what the "actual" capacity is. I have only seen speculation that the extra capacity is to keep us from using the top and bottom ends of the batteries. I doubt it can also be used to keep the "end user" capacity the same, but I guess it is a possibility.

Yodrak
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:01 am
Delivery Date: 12 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 402954
Location: St Louis, MO

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:38 pm

No matter what the subject - politics, religion, or automobiles - proponents of a particular point of view profer the facts that suit them and ignore that facts that don't. Sometimes distorting the facts as well to suit the purpose. Meanwhile, the 'silent majority' ignores the fray - sometimes to their detriment - until one or both sides is either shown to be wrong or gives up the battle.

Sometimes, as has been the case with EVs, the ardent proponents don't go away. They imerse themselves in their cause, continue to develop it, and re-engage when they're ready.

In the end, it will be the general public that decides who is 'right', the advocates or the nay-sayers, by whether or not they buy enough of the cars for the manufacturers to keep building them.

Of course, the Leaf could become the Macintosh of the auto world.
Khun Yodrak
2013 SL

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4780
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:59 pm

AndyH wrote: Your razor likely has NiCad. Not applicable. The subject of this post is obviously out of touch with even 5-8 year old lithium tech - aside from his agenda.
I actually knew that. But they both degrade over time, even though the shape of the curve may be different. My point was even after it has degraded, as long as the capacity is still sufficient for the user's needs it is still viable.
indyflick wrote:Exactly! What's infuriating for me from the FUDzilla's is that they act like we have zero experience with any aspect of EV technology whatsoever. I tell people all the time, just because something is new to you doesn't mean it's actually new. There have been thousands of EVs on the road for over the last decade, and they keep improving. The Nissan LEAF scales this to the hundreds of thousands and includes a lot of useful technology. We know from these earliest adopters that they adjust immediately to the range, the performance, the extreme weather, etc. There's hard data, the sample size is large enough, we don't have to speculate. If you're speculating, launching turd grenades, and dumping FUD into any blog which mentions EVs then it's self evident what your motives in fact are.
I would submit to you that the users of the EVs you are talking about are not at all representative of motorists in general. Education and awareness of technology are orders of magnitude different. I'll make a prediction here: Just about everyone on this board will, at some point, throw something at their TV in response to a news report about some idiotic thing people did with one of these cars.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

User avatar
EVDRIVER
Moderator
Posts: 6753
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am

Re: The Cruel Realities of EV Range on Seeking Alpha

Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:41 pm

My buddy has a huge flooded NICAD traction pack that is about 25 years old and about 90% capacity. If the cases are good the electrolyte can be replace for about $200 and they keep going. You can run them to 100% DOD, that how you "reset" then and they need no BMS at all.

Return to “Business / Economy and Politics”