GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:01 pm

Via GCC:
CMU researchers rule out one potential cause of resistance in polymer electrolyte fuel cells; R&D guidance toward commercialization
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09 ... 4-cmu.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:00 pm

Via GCR:
Japan's Olympic Hydrogen Push Faces Challenges, Questions
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -questions
Certain Japanese carmakers are among the most ardent proponents of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, and the Japanese government plans to use the 2020 Tokyo Olympics to promote hydrogen technology in a wide variety of applications. Officials hope fuel cells can not only power vehicles but replace other power sources in the wake of the Fukushima nuclear disaster. And Tokyo Governor Yoichi Masuzoe wants to use the Olympics as an opportunity to build and showcase new hydrogen infrastructure.

Just as the 1964 Tokyo games were used to promote Japan's now-famous "bullet trains," a "hydrogen society" will be the infrastructure legacy left by the 2020 games, Masuzoe told The Wall Street Journal (subscription required) in a recent interview. "Hydrogen society" is a term that has been used by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to describe a more expansive deployment of fuel cells, in which they are to power buildings as well as vehicles. Tokyo now reportedly plans to spend 40 billion yen ($330 million) through 2020 on hydrogen-infrastructure projects--a slight decrease from previous estimates.

But the cost and pace of the rollout have raised a number of questions, the Wall Street Journal suggests. Officials reportedly hope to have "thousands" of fuel-cell cars on Japanese roads by then, at least 100 fuel-cell buses that primarily serve the Tokyo Olympic Village, and a network of fueling stations. They are also considering building a pipeline to supply the Olympic Village with hydrogen. Fuel cells will reportedly be used to power certain buildings there, including the media center and athlete dormitories.

Masuzoe has pushed more broadly for "de-motorization," as a way to reduce air pollution, encouraging bicycle commuting, creating more pedestrian areas, and backing subsidies for fuel-cell cars. However, Japan has little of the infrastructure to produce hydrogen domestically, so it may rely largely on imports. Companies are reportedly working to produce hydrogen from low-grade (or "dirty") coal in Australia, for instance. But the carbon dioxide produced during that process boosts the wells-to-wheels carbon footprint of the hydrogen vehicle significantly compared to hydrogen produced from renewable energy--the ideal process often cited by proponents.
Japan is also reportedly investigating refineries in Saudi Arabia and Malaysia, and hydroelectric power sources in Canada and Russia, as potential sources of hydrogen.

Honda, Nissan, and Toyota will underwrite some of the operating costs of hydrogen fueling stations. This government-backed policy may be necessary, as the fueling stations currently selling hydrogen at prices competitive with gasoline are operating at a loss. Officials are counting on the economy of scale of more stations and more cars to lower costs related to hydrogen.

But carmakers may not be as committed as the government; Toyota still only plans to make 700 Mirai sedans this year, and 3,000 by 2017. It will be "at least 10 years" before Toyota's hydrogen vehicle production reaches the level of "tens of thousands," a spokesman said. Honda has also said it will offer a fuel-cell car to the general public, but production estimates will have to wait until the car itself debuts.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting Toyota on hydrogen-fueled vehicles:

2005:
Jim Press - Then COO of Toyota North America at 1:03:18 wrote:Ten years from now, you'll begin to see hydrogen-powered cars here and there.
Jim Press - Then COO of Toyota North America at 1:03:22 wrote:But 15 to 20 years from now they'll be the norm.
2015:
GRA wrote:Via GCR:
Japan's Olympic Hydrogen Push Faces Challenges, Questions
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -questions
But carmakers may not be as committed as the government; Toyota still only plans to make 700 Mirai sedans this year, and 3,000 by 2017. It will be "at least 10 years" before Toyota's hydrogen vehicle production reaches the level of "tens of thousands," a spokesman said.
700 is not enough to see them "here and there." I've never seen a hydrogen-fueled vehicle outside of a car show. In fact, tens of thousands will likely not cause you to see them "here and there." To see them "here and there," you need to sell hundreds of thousands, like has already happened with BEVs today. That is why you now see BEVs "here and there."

What Jim Press inadvertently described in 2005 is the actual state of BEVs 10 years hence, not fuel cells. But he refused to even MENTION BEVs in the list of possible future transportation options. And Toyota is still following the same script which does not include BEVs.

But Jim Press' second prediction will also be prescient, again for BEVs rather than H2 FCVs: You can expect BEVs to be the norm five to ten years from now.

So what can we expect Toyota to predict in 2025 about advanced transportation options ten years hence?

I'll go first:

On BEVs: *crickets* (If they are true to their word.)

On H2 FCVs: "It will be at least 10 years before Toyota's hydrogen vehicle production reaches (insert some level equivalent to the ACTUAL BEV production in 2025)."

Next?
RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:18 pm

Last edited by GRA on Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:34 pm

The number may be off by a little, however Nissan will sell more EVs over the next 50 years than Toyota will sell hydrogen cars over the next 100 years. My grandchildren will be dead before more hydrogen cards are sold than EVs.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:43 pm

In 50 years we can check to see if your predictions are any more accurate than Ghosn's (or any of the other auto companies pushing whichever AFV tech they're backing).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:14 pm

Touche. Yeah, he was a bit optimistic.

Here is Toyota's prediction for BEVs back in 2005:
Jim Press - Then COO of Toyota North America at 49:40 wrote:There's a lot of debate today about what powertrains will emerge tomorrow: internal combustion engines, hybrid-electric, diesel, fuel cells, solar. All of these are great new technologies that are emerging that are making internal combustion engines better.
The point is that their disinformation campaign is designed to point people away from BEVs and make people think that hydrogen is somehow the end game. This approach allows them to continue the status quo and to therefore build massive quantities of gasoline-powered cars.

But you've recently told us the real reason you are here: Your view is that efficient transportation works against your objectives, so you are trying to ensure that personal transportation is crippled by making it extremely inefficient and undesireable.
GRA wrote:
Most so-called environmental initiatives are actually counter-productive, because their effect is to make driving less expensive (by reducing the need for fuel) and to make car travel more agreeable (by eliminating congestion). What we really need, from the point of view of both energy conservation and environmental protection, is to make driving costlier and less pleasant.
So it is now fully clear why you are here. You are fighting AGAINST technologies which will "make driving less expensive" and/or "make car travel more agreeable" and FOR technologies which will "make driving costlier and less pleasant." So please drop any pretense that you somehow think H2 FCVs are better than BEVs (in the normal sense of the word better).
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:42 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
Touche. Yeah, he was a bit optimistic.

Here is Toyota's prediction for BEVs back in 2005:
Jim Press - Then COO of Toyota North America at 49:40 wrote:There's a lot of debate today about what powertrains will emerge tomorrow: internal combustion engines, hybrid-electric, diesel, fuel cells, solar. All of these are great new technologies that are emerging that are making internal combustion engines better.
The point is that their disinformation campaign is designed to point people away from BEVs and make people think that hydrogen is somehow the end game. This approach allows them to continue the status quo and to therefore build massive quantities of gasoline-powered cars.

While I certainly agree that Toyota (and all the other ICE manufacturers) wish to continue to sell cars that allow them to make a profit, I continue to be amazed at all the conspiracy theories that attempt to prove that Toyota is in a cabal with oil companies to keep us dependent on petroleum. I mean, the 18 million hybrids that Toyota has sold have reduced gasoline use far more than all other AFVs have, so it seems an odd sort of cabal.
RegGuheert wrote: But you've recently told us the real reason you are here: Your view is that efficient transportation works against your objectives, so you are trying to ensure that personal transportation is crippled by making it extremely inefficient and undesireable.
GRA wrote:
Most so-called environmental initiatives are actually counter-productive, because their effect is to make driving less expensive (by reducing the need for fuel) and to make car travel more agreeable (by eliminating congestion). What we really need, from the point of view of both energy conservation and environmental protection, is to make driving costlier and less pleasant.
So it is now fully clear why you are here. You are fighting AGAINST technologies which will "make driving less expensive" and/or "make car travel more agreeable" and FOR technologies which will "make driving costlier and less pleasant." So please drop any pretense that you somehow think H2 FCVs are better than BEVs (in the normal sense of the word better).
Actually, I'm working for urban planning that eliminates the need to drive for everyday tasks, including work, school, errands, etc., and which makes car ownership optional, so please don't misstate my positions. It's not exactly a secret that making driving more convenient leads to more driving. This is known as induced demand, and is why we haven't been able to build our way out of congestion (despite 80+ years of trying); even a few traffic engineers are starting to recognize this (very few. As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Traffic engineers' jobs depend on building more roads, streets freeways etc.) I wasn't going to type the entire book (or all the other books I've read on the subject, or my own thoughts) into the computer, just give some indication of why I don't believe our current lifestyle is sustainable, and what we need to do to make it so.

Having eliminated the need for most car trips for routine purposes through the above urban planning/redesign measures, and having made those that remain more onerous and/or expensive to reflect the full societal cost of driving in urban areas (example: no more free parking), it is then only necessary to use cars for the remaining tasks for which they are best suited, i.e. quick, convenient, flexible transportation over longer distances in rural areas. FCEVs are currently more suitable for this than BEVs are. However, it will clearly take some decades to redesign our cities in such a fashion, and away from catering to cars as the sole means of transportation, although many of the most forward-looking U.S. cities (the ones the creative-class millennials are choosing to live/work in) are already moving in that direction. Nevertheless, for apartment/condo/townhome dwellers who can't charge at home (which is the vast majority of them throughout the world), the operational characteristics of FCEVs and the lack of any linkage between fueling location and living/work location, as with fossil-fueled ICEs/HEVs, suit them better than BEVs do now. If it were possible to provide recharging at every place that needs it in a shorter period of time than it's possible to provide H2 refueling, then of course more efficient BEVs would be the superior choice for all but a few. But IMO that's not likely to be the case for decades (assuming that either public recharging or H2 refueling can be equal or lower cost than fossil fuels, which isn't the case at the moment).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:04 pm

Via GCC:
ITM Power to deploy solar-powered hydrogen refueling station at CEME; wind-powered public H2 station opens in South Yorkshire
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09 ... 8-itm.html
UK-based ITM Power signed an agreement with The Centre for Engineering and Manufacturing Excellence (CEME) to deploy a Hydrogen Refueling Station (HRS) at the CEME site in Rainham, UK. ITM Power also just opened the first public access hydrogen refueling station, funded by InnovateUK, at the Advanced Manufacturing Park in South Yorkshire.

The CEME campus is located on the A13—one of the main East London arterial roads between London City Airport and the M25—providing publicly accessible refueling infrastructure to East London. The CEME site has one of the largest arrays of photo voltaics in the south of England, consisting of 717 panels designed to supply 115 kW, which will provide power to the station. The station will be deployed as part of the HyFIVE project and will open to the public in Q2 2016.

HyFive, funded by the EU FCH JU (Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking), is a £31-million (US$35-million) project involving leading automakers, hydrogen fuel suppliers, the Mayor of London’s Office and energy consultancies to make hydrogen vehicles a viable and environmentally friendly choice for motorists across Europe.

ITM Power was selected by the Hydrogen London to be the Hydrogen Refueling Station partner for London. This resulted in an award of contract to supply three ITM Power electrolyzer-based refueling stations.

These three stations will be part of three European regions deploying six 700bar hydrogen refueling stations and incorporate 12 existing stations in the project. The fuelling station networks will offer hydrogen as a genuine fuelling choice for end users. ITM Power’s first HyFive station will be delivered to the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington in October 2015.

The South Yorkshire refueling station consists of a 225kW wind turbine coupled directly to an electrolyzer, 220 kg of hydrogen storage, a hydrogen dispensing unit and a 30 kW fuel cell system capable of providing backup power generation for nearby buildings.

The facility has been upgraded as a showcase for ITM Power’s hydrogen generation equipment and is used to provide retail hydrogen fuel services. The M1 motorway was highlighted as a key route for the early deployment of hydrogen refueling in the UK in the published UK H2Mobility Phase 1 Report.

The station, which has been supported by Innovate UK, currently offers hydrogen gas at 350 bar. The station will be upgraded early 2016 to provide hydrogen at 700 bar as a result of funding from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV). This will provide the fuel cell vehicles with a longer range of between 350 – 400 miles and extend the reach of clean emission transportation in South Yorkshire to hydrogen refueling stations elsewhere in the UK, including London.
Also, via ievs:
Edison Electron One Electric Supercar Expected To Debut In Q1 2016
http://insideevs.com/edison-electron-on ... t-q1-2016/
Sunvault Energy and Edison Power Company announced a joint project to create a revolutionary electric supercar – Edison Electron One to showcase the “Graphene Energy Storage System“. According to the press release, Edison Electron One will be equipped with new energy storage:

powered by a Graphene Energy Storage device created by the companies
integrated hydrogen fuel cell to provide an extra level of confidence to offset any potential range anxiety
water electrolyzer to produce hydrogenDr. Robert Murray-Smith, Director of Sunvault Energy said:

“The fuel cell will be powered by an on demand Hydrogen generation unit built into the car and will only require water.”

Gary Monaghan, CEO of Sunvault Energy adds:

“With our Energy Storage Device, reliability and peace of mind are wrapped in one design.”

In other words, there will be some new battery pack with cells using graphene and a hydrogen fuel cell range extender with electrolyzer. . . .
It'll be interesting to see if this ever gets beyond the hype/vaporware stage. Call me skeptical. Edit: Apparently with good reason. See
Sunvault Energy: Late Filings Aren't The Only Problems
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3245496 ... y-problems
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

mbender
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:27 pm

I just got the following email from CARB, in case anyone wants to rain on their parade:
CARB (mmeuser@arb.ca.gov) wrote:The California Air Resources Board invites you to attend the 2015
California Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Summit, taking place September 30
– October 1, 2015 at the Cal/EPA headquarters building in
Sacramento. The Summit will feature high-level speakers and a
great opportunity to network. Regular registration for the event
closes Friday at http://www.californiahydrogensummit.com and government
employees can register for free with a .gov email address.

This year’s topics include:
  • California leadership in sustainable energy
  • National activity in hydrogen and fuel cells
  • Visions of hydrogen and fuel cell business chief executives
  • Regional environmental actions
  • Spotlight on clean transportation – stations, vehicles, and transit
  • Spotlight on renewable hydrogen
  • The business and transitions of the California Hydrogen Business Council
Review the detailed agenda:
http://www.californiahydrogensummit.com/program.asp

ARB Deputy Executive Officer Dr. Alberto Ayala will provide a
keynote presentation after California Energy Commissioner Janea
Scott’s opening keynote.

The Summit will also feature two displays:
  • See the Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle up
    close (and learn how to buy or lease it)
  • View an AC Transit hydrogen-powered fuel cell bus
In addition, a special tour of the West Sacramento hydrogen
fueling station will take place with a Linde representative
https://californiahydrogen.org/civicrm/ ... 23&reset=1

The Summit is hosted by the California Hydrogen Business Council
(CHBC). You can receive updates under @CAhydrogen and #hydrogensummit.

For more information, please visit the web address identified
above or contact Mr. Gerhard Achtelik, Manager, ZEV
Infrastructure Section at gachteli@arb.ca.gov or 916.323.8973.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

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