GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:43 pm

I notice you left out long haul trucks (and motor coaches) which will clearly need to be H2 if ZEV, barring a major technical improvement in batteries. As it is, batteries simply can't meet the operational requirements of long range, rapid refueling and light weight. Fuel cells for trucks have much the same requirements as cars, reducing R&D and tooling costs. As it is, Toyota and others are using dual stacks developed for cars for trucks and buses now, although purpose-designed stacks for heavy vehicles such as Nikola, Cummins and Daimler are developing will undoubtedly replace them eventually.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:55 pm

lebikerboy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:45 pm
The cost of Hydrogen production be it from natural gas or electrolysis doesn't look like it will
ever match the cost per mile of BEV's as the price of batteries drops. This doesn't even take into account
the woeful distribution network at present...

As has been pointed out many times, H2 needs to compete costwise with gas/diesel, not batteries.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:28 pm

I could easily see many motor coaches going battery electric. Been on plenty of tour buses that go less than 600 miles, put the group in a hotel for 1 or 2 nights before they do it again and repeat for 5 to 21 days. I assume range of the Tesla Semi. This would work fine for many RVs too.

OK Greyhound 24/7 maybe not so much. Would have to stop and charge at many of the stops for I assume a full hour+ meal break.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:02 pm

smkettner wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:28 pm
I could easily see many motor coaches going battery electric. Been on plenty of tour buses that go less than 600 miles, put the group in a hotel for 1 or 2 nights before they do it again and repeat for 5 to 21 days. I assume range of the Tesla Semi. This would work fine for many RVs too.

OK Greyhound 24/7 maybe not so much. Would have to stop and charge at many of the stops for I assume a full hour+ meal break.
Yes. If the range is adequate year-round (at the lowest TCO, i.e no replacing the pack halfway through the vehicle's life) then a BEV is fine. If not, FCEV.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:04 pm

GRA wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:55 pm
lebikerboy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:45 pm
The cost of Hydrogen production be it from natural gas or electrolysis doesn't look like it will
ever match the cost per mile of BEV's as the price of batteries drops. This doesn't even take into account
the woeful distribution network at present...

As has been pointed out many times, H2 needs to compete costwise with gas/diesel, not batteries.
As has been pointed out many times, by the time H2 is ready to compete with gas/diesel, battery vehicles will be the majority.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:54 pm

WetEV wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:04 pm
GRA wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:55 pm
lebikerboy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:45 pm
The cost of Hydrogen production be it from natural gas or electrolysis doesn't look like it will
ever match the cost per mile of BEV's as the price of batteries drops. This doesn't even take into account
the woeful distribution network at present...

As has been pointed out many times, H2 needs to compete costwise with gas/diesel, not batteries.
As has been pointed out many times, by the time H2 is ready to compete with gas/diesel, battery vehicles will be the majority.
As has been pointed out many times to you, you're entitled to your opinion. It's likely but we'll see, and it doesn't change the fact that batteries are currently unable to compete in that particular environment. Maybe they will by the time H2 can compete with gas in price (assuming it can), maybe not, but as of now they can't. As truck and bus traffic has an outsized effect on emissions, they have to be cleaned up sooner rather than later:
What portion of statewide emissions are heavy-duty trucks responsible
for?
Heavy-duty trucks emit nearly 33 percent of NOx, 26 percent of PM 2.5, and 8 percent
of GHG based on statewide emission sources. These vehicles represent significant
sources of emissions, and reductions from these sources are necessary to meet
California’s air quality goals.

See CARB's: SUPPORTING INFORMATION FOR TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENTS:
TRUCK AND BUS SECTOR DESCRIPTION

It's a PDF, and I'm unable to link to it.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:13 pm

The ones to watch are Tesla Semi and Nikola. Seems odd that lately Nikola is leaning a bit more onto the battery side of things.
Do we have a count on EV buses vs FC buses? Because my guess is production EV holds 90% or better in this battle.
Time will tell but the writing seems to be on the wall high and clear.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

GRA
Posts: 12076
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:58 pm

smkettner wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:13 pm
The ones to watch are Tesla Semi and Nikola. Seems odd that lately Nikola is leaning a bit more onto the battery side of things.
Do we have a count on EV buses vs FC buses? Because my guess is production EV holds 90% or better in this battle.
Time will tell but the writing seems to be on the wall high and clear.

BEV buses are currently well ahead, but then you'd expect them to be, as they're about five years ahead in development and deployment. Also, for any bus job that a BEV can do at the lowest TCO, it's the clear choice. This is primarily local buses on shorter routes in regions with milder winter temps at the moment, especially where the fleet is big enough to allow route specialization.

As the requirements for range, heating and route flexibility increase, BEV buses are increasingly unable to meet them, and that's the area where FCEV buses are starting to make inroads. They also don't require construction of expensive charging facilities (either plug, inductive or pantograph) along the route, just fueling facilities at the depot.

This article: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic. ... na#p586187

mentions that Ballard stacks are powering 650 buses and 2,200 trucks in China now. The FCEV bus numbers are dwarfed by the number of BEV buses there, which were over four hundred thousand last year. Presumably most if not all of those are urban or short intercity buses rather than coaches.

China's big on LFP chemistry, which although lower in specific energy has good specific power, cycle life, safety and tolerance to being kept at high states of charge. A bus unlike a truck is rarely weight critical, so the low specific energy wouldn't be a big problem there, assuming range is adequate.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:24 pm

I occasionally post links to research work just to indicate what's going on in the field. As with all lab results, most never make it to commercialization.

Both GCC:
CSIRO team optimistic about use of nitrogenase in applications such as green ammonia production for carrying H2

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... apson.html

In a review paper published in the journal ChemSusChem, researchers from Australia’s CSIRO conclude that the combination of synthetic biology and materials chemistry will provide many viable options to allow the use of nitrogenase for energy applications, such as the production of green ammonia for use as a preferred liquid carrier for hydrogen.

"To export hydrogen from regions with high renewable energy intensity to those lean in renewable energy requires hydrogen to be in a form that is transportable. … in recent years significant advances have been made in both NH3 decomposition catalysts and membranes for hydrogen separation. These advances have provided technologies that are both scalable and economically viable, making ammonia the preferred carrier for the long-distance transport of hydrogen."

—Rapson et al. . . .

"In contrast to the extreme temperature and pressures required by the H-B process, the specialist class of diazotrophic bacteria can reduce dinitrogen at ambient temperatures and pressure. These bacteria use an enzyme known as nitrogenase which converts dinitrogen (N2) and protons (H+) into NH3 and H2. Over the last five years, exciting progress has been made in developing processes whereby nitrogenase can be used to produce ammonia ex vivo which can be powered by renewable energy. This work has reignited interest in using nitrogenase enzymes for the production of ammonia and hydrogen, both of which have energy applications. Here, we outline key biochemical features of nitrogenase and how the recent advances can pave the way for solar powered enzymatic production of NH3 and H2."

—Rapson et al.

The authors noted that genome sequencing and DNA synthesis has grown rapidly over the last 20 years. These advances can be applied to building synthetic nitrogenase componentry.

Further, they note, advances in techniques such as directed evolution could allow the development of nitrogenase enzymes optimized for industrial applications. In addition, materials science can provide avenues to improve the fabrication of the bioelectrode with the potential to improve the stability of the enzyme. . . .

There's a lot more detail I've left out. Since we're talking about ammonia as a convenient way to transport H2, here's a related article:
Hyundai Mipo Dockyard receives green light from Lloyd’s Register for ammonia-fueled ships

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... undai.html
Mipo Dockyard Co., a unit of Korea Shipbuilding, has been given the green light for its ammonia-propelled ships from Lloyd’s Register. Hyundai Mipo Dockyard intends to commercialize the ammonia-propelled ships by 2025 in cooperation with global engine maker MAN Energy Solutions and Lloyd’s Register.

Ammonia has been attracting attention in the shipbuilding industry as an eco-friendly fuel for ships that does not emit carbon dioxide when it is burned.

The International Maritime Organization (IMO) has adopted mandatory steps under which carriers are required to operate a fleet of vessels designed to cut emissions of carbon dioxide by more than 30% by 2025 compared with 2008.

The IMO is also considering further reducing emission levels by 40% by 2030 and 70 percent by 2050.

From 1 Jan. 2020, the IMO lowered the sulfur cap on fuel content from 3.5% to 0.5%. . . .

Korea Shipbuilding and Hyundai Heavy set up a center in March in Ulsan to develop ships powered by both liquefied natural gas (LNG) engines and fuel cells by late 2021.

There are obvious public safety implications in transporting or using large amounts of NH3 in ships, esp. in ports, and I'd think terminals would need similar remoteness and security as with LNG tankers.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:05 pm

engadget:
Microsoft used hydrogen fuel cells to power a data center for two days straight
This will help Microsoft's efforts to become carbon neutral by 2030.

https://www-engadget-com.cdn.ampproject ... 19512.html

Microsoft announced Monday that hydrogen fuel cells powered a row of its datacenter servers for 48 consecutive hours, bringing the company one step closer toward its goal of becoming “carbon negative” by 2030. Microsoft is exploring how the clean technology could be used to fuel more aspects of its operations. . . .

While Microsoft had already eliminated most of its dependence on fossil fuels, it still had a few diesel-powered backup generators at Azure data centers, according to a statement. Diesel is expensive while hydrogen fuel cell costs have plummeted, the statement said, so Microsoft officials decided to test hydrogen fuel cells as a replacement.

The idea to explore hydrogen fuel cells originated in 2018, when researchers at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, CO used a proton exchange membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cell to power a rack of computers. Mark Monroe, a principal infrastructure engineer on Microsoft’s team for datacenter advanced development, said his team watched a demonstration and was intrigued with the technology.

Monroe’s team developed a 250-kilowatt fuel cell system, enough to power a full row of data center servers, and in September 2019 installed it at an Azure datacenter near Salt Lake City, Utah. In June, the system passed a 48-hour test. The team plans to test a 3-megawatt fuel system next, which matches the size of current diesel-powered backup generators.

It’s possible that an Azure data center could be equipped and run entirely on fuel cells, a hydrogen storage tank and an electrolyzer that converts water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, Monroe said. These systems could integrate with the electric power grid to provide load balancing services. Further, hydrogen-powered long-haul vehicles could come to datacenters to refuel. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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