GRA
Posts: 11073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Seems to be the month for H2 plants to have major problems. IEVS:
Hydrogen Fueling Station Explodes: Toyota & Hyundai Halt Fuel Cell Car Sales
https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydro ... -explodes/
A hydrogen refueling station exploded and stood in flames yesterday in Sandvika, Norway, which could make June 10, 2019 the day when the perception about hydrogen stations and hydrogen fuel cell cars, in general, will forever change.

According to reports from the Uno-X station, the explosion was huge. It triggered airbags in nearby cars and caused the necessity to close off the busy E18 and E16 intersection. A safety zone of 500 meters was recommended by the fire service.

The good news is that there are no reports about direct injuries, but some reports say two people were sent to the emergency room because of injuries sustained from airbags in their cars. . . .
The author's comments seem more than a little hyperbolic. After all, it's not as if oil refineries never explode*, which is why they and any hazardous substance plant are located with large safety areas around them for that reason. Did anyone think they were completely safe? I mean, two whole people were injured in this case by air bag deployment - Oh, the horror!
*Texas City Refinery explosion

The Texas City Refinery explosion occurred on March 23, 2005, when a hydrocarbon vapor cloud was ignited and violently exploded at the ISOM isomerization process unit at BP's Texas City refinery in Texas City, Texas, killing 15 workers, injuring 180 others and severely damaging the refinery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Cit ... _explosion

Maybe there are people so clueless that they think that H2 is completely safe rather than being a hazmat, just as gasoline is. The sales stoppage is temporary; if there's no fuel, who's going to buy the cars?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:17 pm

GRA wrote:Seems to be the month for H2 plants to have major problems. IEVS:
Hydrogen Fueling Station Explodes: Toyota & Hyundai Halt Fuel Cell Car Sales
https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydro ... -explodes/
A hydrogen refueling station exploded and stood in flames yesterday in Sandvika, Norway, which could make June 10, 2019 the day when the perception about hydrogen stations and hydrogen fuel cell cars, in general, will forever change.

According to reports from the Uno-X station, the explosion was huge. It triggered airbags in nearby cars and caused the necessity to close off the busy E18 and E16 intersection. A safety zone of 500 meters was recommended by the fire service.

The good news is that there are no reports about direct injuries, but some reports say two people were sent to the emergency room because of injuries sustained from airbags in their cars. . . .
The author's comments seem more than a little hyperbolic. After all, it's not as if oil refineries never explode*, which is why they and any hazardous substance plant are located with large safety areas around them for that reason. Did anyone think they were completely safe? I mean, two whole people were injured in this case by air bag deployment - Oh, the horror!
*Texas City Refinery explosion

The Texas City Refinery explosion occurred on March 23, 2005, when a hydrocarbon vapor cloud was ignited and violently exploded at the ISOM isomerization process unit at BP's Texas City refinery in Texas City, Texas, killing 15 workers, injuring 180 others and severely damaging the refinery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Cit ... _explosion

Maybe there are people so clueless that they think that H2 is completely safe rather than being a hazmat, just as gasoline is. The sales stoppage is temporary; if there's no fuel, who's going to buy the cars?
The H2 being a flammable product isn't the issue. It's the method of storing it under extreme pressure that's the problem. Those airbags weren't deployed because the H2 burned, they deployed because of the pressure wave that formed when the gas escaped at hypersonic velocity!

The Texas refinery explosion is of a completely different nature (involving aerated fuel - something that's normally heavier than air and so won't float away).

Check out videos of the burning hindenburg. It didn't explode despite all the H2 being contained in the Zeppelin, because everything was at standard air pressure (14psi).

H2 is relatively safe ... at low pressure. Hopefully Toyota and Honda sees the writing on the wall and stop their infatuation with pressurized H2.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: NM

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:53 pm

^^ well said.

Google says that an H2 station costs $1.2 - 1.5 USD Million to build. That price is going to jump to try and reduce the frequency of future explosions. This reminds me of nuclear -- the cost of safety overwhelms the industry.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 11073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:01 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:Seems to be the month for H2 plants to have major problems. IEVS:
Hydrogen Fueling Station Explodes: Toyota & Hyundai Halt Fuel Cell Car Sales
https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydro ... -explodes/
A hydrogen refueling station exploded and stood in flames yesterday in Sandvika, Norway, which could make June 10, 2019 the day when the perception about hydrogen stations and hydrogen fuel cell cars, in general, will forever change.

According to reports from the Uno-X station, the explosion was huge. It triggered airbags in nearby cars and caused the necessity to close off the busy E18 and E16 intersection. A safety zone of 500 meters was recommended by the fire service.

The good news is that there are no reports about direct injuries, but some reports say two people were sent to the emergency room because of injuries sustained from airbags in their cars. . . .
The author's comments seem more than a little hyperbolic. After all, it's not as if oil refineries never explode*, which is why they and any hazardous substance plant are located with large safety areas around them for that reason. Did anyone think they were completely safe? I mean, two whole people were injured in this case by air bag deployment - Oh, the horror!
*Texas City Refinery explosion

The Texas City Refinery explosion occurred on March 23, 2005, when a hydrocarbon vapor cloud was ignited and violently exploded at the ISOM isomerization process unit at BP's Texas City refinery in Texas City, Texas, killing 15 workers, injuring 180 others and severely damaging the refinery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Cit ... _explosion

Maybe there are people so clueless that they think that H2 is completely safe rather than being a hazmat, just as gasoline is. The sales stoppage is temporary; if there's no fuel, who's going to buy the cars?
The H2 being a flammable product isn't the issue. It's the method of storing it under extreme pressure that's the problem. Those airbags weren't deployed because the H2 burned, they deployed because of the pressure wave that formed when the gas escaped at hypersonic velocity!

The Texas refinery explosion is of a completely different nature (involving aerated fuel - something that's normally heavier than air and so won't float away).

Check out videos of the burning hindenburg. It didn't explode despite all the H2 being contained in the Zeppelin, because everything was at standard air pressure (14psi).

H2 is relatively safe ... at low pressure. Hopefully Toyota and Honda sees the writing on the wall and stop their infatuation with pressurized H2.
See my comments to this point in the other topic.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:21 pm

GCC:
IEA: time to tap into hydrogen’s potential to play a key role in a clean, secure and affordable energy future
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... 5-iea.html
. . . The in-depth study, which analyzes hydrogen’s current state of play and offers guidance on its future development, was launched by Dr Fatih Birol, the IEA’s Executive Director, alongside Mr Hiroshige Seko, Japan’s Minister of Economy, Trade and Industry, on the occasion of the meeting of G20 energy and environment ministers in Karuizawa, Japan.

The report—The Future of Hydrogen: Seizing Today’s Opportunities—finds that clean hydrogen is currently receiving strong support from governments and businesses around the world, with the number of policies and projects expanding rapidly.

Hydrogen can help to tackle various critical energy challenges, including helping to store the variable output from renewables like solar PV and wind to better match demand. It offers ways to decarbonize a range of sectors—including long-haul transport, chemicals, and iron and steel—where it is proving difficult to meaningfully reduce emissions. It can also help to improve air quality and strengthen energy security. . . .

To build on this momentum, the IEA report offers seven key recommendations to help governments, companies and other stakeholders to scale up hydrogen projects around the world. These include four areas where actions today can help to lay the foundations for the growth of a global clean hydrogen industry in the years ahead:
  • Making industrial ports the nerve centers for scaling up the use of clean hydrogen;

    Building on existing infrastructure, such as natural gas pipelines;

    Expanding the use of hydrogen in transport by using it to power cars, trucks and buses that run on key routes; and

    Launching the hydrogen trade’s first international shipping routes.
The report notes that hydrogen still faces significant challenges. Producing hydrogen from low-carbon energy is costly at the moment, the development of hydrogen infrastructure is slow and holding back widespread adoption, and some regulations currently limit the development of a clean hydrogen industry.

Today, hydrogen is already being used on an industrial scale, but it is almost entirely supplied from natural gas and coal. Its production, mainly for the chemicals and refining industries, is responsible for 830 million tonnes of CO2 emissions per year. That’s the equivalent of the annual carbon emissions of the United Kingdom and Indonesia combined.

Reducing emissions from existing hydrogen production is a challenge but also represents an opportunity to increase the scale of clean hydrogen worldwide. One approach is to capture and store or utilize the CO2 from hydrogen production from fossil fuels. There are currently several industrial facilities around the world that use this process, and more are in the pipeline, but a much greater number is required to make a significant impact.

Another approach is for industries to secure greater supplies of hydrogen from clean electricity. In the past two decades, more than 200 projects have started operation to convert electricity and water into hydrogen to reduce emissions—from transport, natural gas use and industrial sectors—or to support the integration of renewables into the energy system.

Expanding the use of clean hydrogen in other sectors—such as cars, trucks, steel and heating buildings—is another important challenge. There are currently around 11,200 hydrogen-powered cars on the road worldwide. Existing government targets call for that number to increase to 2.5 million by 2030.

Policy makers need to make sure market conditions are well adapted for reaching such ambitious goals. The recent successes of solar PV, wind, batteries and electric vehicles have shown that policy and technology innovation have the power to build global clean energy industries. . . .
Direct link to page where you can download the full report (203 pgs.), the executive summary (9 pgs.) etc.:
The Future of Hydrogen
Seizing today's opportunities
https://www.iea.org/hydrogen2019/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:05 pm

GRA wrote:GCC:
IEA: time to tap into hydrogen’s potential to play a key role in a clean, secure and affordable energy future
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... 5-iea.html
. . . The in-depth study, which analyzes hydrogen’s current state of play and offers guidance on its future development, was launched by Dr Fatih Birol, the IEA’s Executive Director, alongside Mr Hiroshige Seko, Japan’s Minister of Economy, Trade and Industry, on the occasion of the meeting of G20 energy and environment ministers in Karuizawa, Japan.

The report—The Future of Hydrogen: Seizing Today’s Opportunities—finds that clean hydrogen is currently receiving strong support from governments and businesses around the world, with the number of policies and projects expanding rapidly.

Hydrogen can help to tackle various critical energy challenges, including helping to store the variable output from renewables like solar PV and wind to better match demand. It offers ways to decarbonize a range of sectors—including long-haul transport, chemicals, and iron and steel—where it is proving difficult to meaningfully reduce emissions. It can also help to improve air quality and strengthen energy security. . . .

To build on this momentum, the IEA report offers seven key recommendations to help governments, companies and other stakeholders to scale up hydrogen projects around the world. These include four areas where actions today can help to lay the foundations for the growth of a global clean hydrogen industry in the years ahead:
  • Making industrial ports the nerve centers for scaling up the use of clean hydrogen;

    Building on existing infrastructure, such as natural gas pipelines;

    Expanding the use of hydrogen in transport by using it to power cars, trucks and buses that run on key routes; and

    Launching the hydrogen trade’s first international shipping routes.
The report notes that hydrogen still faces significant challenges. Producing hydrogen from low-carbon energy is costly at the moment, the development of hydrogen infrastructure is slow and holding back widespread adoption, and some regulations currently limit the development of a clean hydrogen industry.

Today, hydrogen is already being used on an industrial scale, but it is almost entirely supplied from natural gas and coal. Its production, mainly for the chemicals and refining industries, is responsible for 830 million tonnes of CO2 emissions per year. That’s the equivalent of the annual carbon emissions of the United Kingdom and Indonesia combined.

Reducing emissions from existing hydrogen production is a challenge but also represents an opportunity to increase the scale of clean hydrogen worldwide. One approach is to capture and store or utilize the CO2 from hydrogen production from fossil fuels. There are currently several industrial facilities around the world that use this process, and more are in the pipeline, but a much greater number is required to make a significant impact.

Another approach is for industries to secure greater supplies of hydrogen from clean electricity. In the past two decades, more than 200 projects have started operation to convert electricity and water into hydrogen to reduce emissions—from transport, natural gas use and industrial sectors—or to support the integration of renewables into the energy system.

Expanding the use of clean hydrogen in other sectors—such as cars, trucks, steel and heating buildings—is another important challenge. There are currently around 11,200 hydrogen-powered cars on the road worldwide. Existing government targets call for that number to increase to 2.5 million by 2030.

Policy makers need to make sure market conditions are well adapted for reaching such ambitious goals. The recent successes of solar PV, wind, batteries and electric vehicles have shown that policy and technology innovation have the power to build global clean energy industries. . . .
Direct link to page where you can download the full report (203 pgs.), the executive summary (9 pgs.) etc.:
The Future of Hydrogen
Seizing today's opportunities
https://www.iea.org/hydrogen2019/
The IEA can be relied upon to gather data, but they're the worst at forecasting (https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/20/cl ... ust-right/ ... https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy ... udy-warns/ ... https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/05/24/ ... e-caution/ ... https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/06/ie ... forecasts/). Consider their projections as works of fiction.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:34 am

^^ Yep. EIA (and IEA) forecasting of clean energy is the stuff of legend.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 11073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:45 pm

SageBrush wrote:^^ Yep. EIA (and IEA) forecasting of clean energy is the stuff of legend.
And anyone else's isn't? Long-term energy forecasts can be counted on to be wrong, owing to what I call the Roseanne Roseannadanna principle which always slows down energy transitions: "it's always something — if it ain't one thing, it's another." Rosy forecasts of the impending replacement of fossil-fuels by renewables (or nukes FTM) by year X going back more than 40 years have been even more consistently off-base than IEA, EIA, BP or whomever you choose. Personally, I find throwing darts at a dartboard to predict the pace of energy transitions is equally likely to be correct, and a lot more fun.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:59 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ Yep. EIA (and IEA) forecasting of clean energy is the stuff of legend.
And anyone else's isn't?
Correct.

Lots of forecasters recognize that the growth is geometric rather than linear.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 11073
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:33 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ Yep. EIA (and IEA) forecasting of clean energy is the stuff of legend.
And anyone else's isn't?
Correct.

Lots of forecasters recognize that the growth is geometric rather than linear.
And lots of forecasters have been wrong making that claim, for decades now. sure,, it may be exponential at some point, but there's almost always some major discontinuity that interrupts or even stops the growth, sometimes forever, whether shortage of resource, costs, inertia due to existing infrastructure, improvements in existing tech or a competing source, wars or what have you. I repeat, long-term energy forecasts which claim to know with high probability when such and such an energy source will achieve X% of the market aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Just to take one example of such a discontinuity due to a technical advance, remember Hubbert's curve? He correctly predicted that U.S. oil production would peak in the '70s and then start falling off, with the U.S. quickly falling from the #1 position to well down the list of producers. What he didn't predict is that fracking would develop the way it has, which has resulted in the U.S. becoming the world's largest oil producer again (at least for a short while, until teh oil freed by fracking gets used up). There is nothing in Hubbert's curve that would have predicted this.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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