Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:22 am

GRA wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:54 pm
I agree that the separate generator turbine seems unnecessary at first sight, but if best efficiency of the propulsion motor/propeller and generator/blades varies significantly due to speed, it may be worth doing. I expect they'll determine which way to go as the design is refined. What they show in that illustration strikes me as just a basic concept.

Re batteries/panels plus wind, if space and weight weren't an issue that might work. As this is eventually intended for an ocean-going cargo ship that will have to float, batteries/panels strike me as an even longer shot than this. Solar-powered cars, which require much less power/ mile and have a much greater proportional exposed surface area for panels than would be the case here (as the sails & masts would block many of the modules) have never shown much practical value for long-range propulsion or cargo-hauling; running auxiliary loads is a different matter.

I await test results of this, without any great expectation of practicality.
This isn't a solar powered car. sailboats with solar + batteries and electric motors (in place of the diesel engines and generators) are already plying the waters. This is reality, not "an even longer shot".
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:48 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:22 am

<Snip>

This isn't a solar powered car. sailboats with solar + batteries and electric motors (in place of the diesel engines and generators) are already plying the waters. This is reality, not "an even longer shot".

Are any being used for cargo hauling, which is the requirement? AFAIA, no one is even considering using PV/batteries plus wind for trans-oceanic commerce.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:01 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:48 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:22 am

<Snip>

This isn't a solar powered car. sailboats with solar + batteries and electric motors (in place of the diesel engines and generators) are already plying the waters. This is reality, not "an even longer shot".

Are any being used for cargo hauling, which is the requirement? AFAIA, no one is even considering using PV/batteries plus wind for trans-oceanic commerce.
Neither was that proof of concept boat in that article. And if you think no one's considering PV+batteries+wind for commerce, that's because you're blinded by your own bias: https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/en ... argo-ships
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:01 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:48 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:22 am

<Snip>

This isn't a solar powered car. sailboats with solar + batteries and electric motors (in place of the diesel engines and generators) are already plying the waters. This is reality, not "an even longer shot".

Are any being used for cargo hauling, which is the requirement? AFAIA, no one is even considering using PV/batteries plus wind for trans-oceanic commerce.
Neither was that proof of concept boat in that article. And if you think no one's considering PV+batteries+wind for commerce, that's because you're blinded by your own bias: https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/en ... argo-ships

The proof of concept boat is just that, looking ahead to developing a full-fledged version for cargo use if the numbers work. The example you linked will be using PV to "supply electricity for onboard lighting and equipment", not propulsion. As I stated a few posts back, using PV "for running auxiliary loads is a different matter."

Once again, I'm curious as to how you arrive at the conclusion I'm biased, apparently against PV and battery systems now, despite having designed and/or sold a couple of hundred PV/battery-based systems for off-grid power, including a few systems for sailboats. Personally I'm all for solar car roofs and hoods to run hotel loads, thus saving more of the battery for propulsion.

The power demands of propulsion and auxiliary loads like lighting typically differ by a few orders of magnitude. As with solar-propelled cars it's possible to build solar-propelled ships, provided you don't have to go fast or far, or carry a useful load while doing so.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:30 pm

GRA wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:01 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:48 pm



Are any being used for cargo hauling, which is the requirement? AFAIA, no one is even considering using PV/batteries plus wind for trans-oceanic commerce.
Neither was that proof of concept boat in that article. And if you think no one's considering PV+batteries+wind for commerce, that's because you're blinded by your own bias: https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/en ... argo-ships

The proof of concept boat is just that, looking ahead to developing a full-fledged version for cargo use if the numbers work. The example you linked will be using PV to "supply electricity for onboard lighting and equipment", not propulsion. As I stated a few posts back, using PV "for running auxiliary loads is a different matter."

Once again, I'm curious as to how you arrive at the conclusion I'm biased, apparently against PV and battery systems now, despite having designed and/or sold a couple of hundred PV/battery-based systems for off-grid power, including a few systems for sailboats. Personally I'm all for solar car roofs and hoods to run hotel loads, thus saving more of the battery for propulsion.

The power demands of propulsion and auxiliary loads like lighting typically differ by a few orders of magnitude. As with solar-propelled cars it's possible to build solar-propelled ships, provided you don't have to go fast or far, or carry a useful load while doing so.
You're biased against batteries for powertrains. You're hung up about the weight of the battery systems that you've got direct experience with, without realizing that there's more involved in propulsion (both on land and at sea) than just weight alone. You said that "no one is considering using PV/batteries + wind for transoceanic commerce", and I provided proof that someone is. You're biased against batteries as being an essential part of any powertrain, that's why you think that hydrogen will solve the zero-emissions commercial shipping problem first.

Don't forget that the Turanor already navigated around the world on solar+batteries alone (no wind).
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WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:26 am

GRA wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm
The power demands of propulsion and auxiliary loads like lighting typically differ by a few orders of magnitude. As with solar-propelled cars it's possible to build solar-propelled ships, provided you don't have to go fast or far, or carry a useful load while doing so.
One for three would be fairly good in baseball.

Fast isn't realistic. Fastest I know of is 55 km/h on solar power (30 knots). Daytime, not sustained. Light boat, calm conditions. Under most ocean conditions, a sailing ship is likely to outrun a similar sized and massed solar ship. More so in high latitudes and far from the equator. Near the equator and passages into the wind would be advantage solar.

https://solarboatteam.nl/en/onze-zonneboot/


Far, on the other hand is realistic. Food for the crew is the physical limit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BBranor_PlanetSolar


Useful load is also realistic, but not yet economic. Consider a "chinamax" sized ship. These are 65 meters by 360 meters. At 50W daily average per square meter, that is about 1,170 kW. As wavemaking drag predominates, the speed would be around 4 knots, less than that a Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C (80,000 kW) would propel the ship, around 25 to 30 knots. Shipping times to/from China to the USA would increase more than the difference in speed, as the solar ship would want to stay closer to the equator.

When we totally stop using fossil fuel, some combination of wind and solar/batteries would likely be the most economic for most ocean transportation. Hydrogen or biofuels might make sense for ice breakers and similar high latitude/wintertime, or nuclear.
WetEV
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:48 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:30 pm
GRA wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:01 pm


Neither was that proof of concept boat in that article. And if you think no one's considering PV+batteries+wind for commerce, that's because you're blinded by your own bias: https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/en ... argo-ships

The proof of concept boat is just that, looking ahead to developing a full-fledged version for cargo use if the numbers work. The example you linked will be using PV to "supply electricity for onboard lighting and equipment", not propulsion. As I stated a few posts back, using PV "for running auxiliary loads is a different matter."

Once again, I'm curious as to how you arrive at the conclusion I'm biased, apparently against PV and battery systems now, despite having designed and/or sold a couple of hundred PV/battery-based systems for off-grid power, including a few systems for sailboats. Personally I'm all for solar car roofs and hoods to run hotel loads, thus saving more of the battery for propulsion.

The power demands of propulsion and auxiliary loads like lighting typically differ by a few orders of magnitude. As with solar-propelled cars it's possible to build solar-propelled ships, provided you don't have to go fast or far, or carry a useful load while doing so.
You're biased against batteries for powertrains. You're hung up about the weight of the battery systems that you've got direct experience with, without realizing that there's more involved in propulsion (both on land and at sea) than just weight alone. You said that "no one is considering using PV/batteries + wind for transoceanic commerce", and I provided proof that someone is. You're biased against batteries as being an essential part of any powertrain, that's why you think that hydrogen will solve the zero-emissions commercial shipping problem first.

Don't forget that the Turanor already navigated around the world on solar+batteries alone (no wind).

You know, if you're going to just make up claims about me with no basis in fact, you should throw in a mention of "Dominion" and "Venezuela" to raise your credibility to that of Trump's legal team; they may be looking for new recruits given Rudi's hospitalization.

I'm not biased against batteries for powertrains, I'm a fan of them when they're the best technology for the job compared to the available alternatives. Currently, they're well suited for local and intra-regional use with dedicated overnight charging, moderately suited to weekend trip use with no more than 1 enroute QC each way, and poorly suited to long trips requiring multiple enroute QCs, especially in colder temps, where time is a major factor. Again, when compared to the available alternatives.

If/when batteries improve to the point that they're well suited for more transportation uses I'll say so. I expect pigs to fly before transcontinental BEV airliners do, but I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

Nor am I 'hung up' on the weight of battery systems, whether I have direct experience of them or not. It's not just weight, it's also power and energy density, operating temperature range, longevity, TCO, and a host of other factors. I believe in picking the tool to fit the job, not trying to make every job fit the tool.

Re your comment about providing evidence of PV+batteries & wind use for trans-oceanic commerce, have you forgotten that this started with an article about a hybrid wind/H2 fuel cell propulsion system, and not about using AE to run auxiliary loads? As I said, they're another matter, and both PV/batteries and fuel cells (mostly the latter AFAIA) are starting to be used to replace diesel gensets on ships. It's still small-scale, but as emission regs get tighter we'll see more and more of it.

Mentioning the Turanor has as much relevance to potential commercial development potential for cargo ships as the Solar Impulse has to commercial A/C, or the participants in the Solar Challenge races (held, unsurprisingly, in Australian spring rather than in Canadian or Northern European winter) to commercial trucks. Currently, if you don't care how long you take and don't have to make a dependable schedule, don't care how much you carry, or where you're limited in going by what routes at what time of the year, then solar-propelled vehicles may work. As modern medium and long-range cargo transport does care about all those issues, PV/battery propulsion systems simply can't cope, for now.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:02 pm

WetEV wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:26 am
GRA wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:42 pm
The power demands of propulsion and auxiliary loads like lighting typically differ by a few orders of magnitude. As with solar-propelled cars it's possible to build solar-propelled ships, provided you don't have to go fast or far, or carry a useful load while doing so.
One for three would be fairly good in baseball.

Fast isn't realistic. Fastest I know of is 55 km/h on solar power (30 knots). Daytime, not sustained. Light boat, calm conditions. Under most ocean conditions, a sailing ship is likely to outrun a similar sized and massed solar ship. More so in high latitudes and far from the equator. Near the equator and passages into the wind would be advantage solar.

https://solarboatteam.nl/en/onze-zonneboot/


Far, on the other hand is realistic. Food for the crew is the physical limit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BBranor_PlanetSolar


Useful load is also realistic, but not yet economic. Consider a "chinamax" sized ship. These are 65 meters by 360 meters. At 50W daily average per square meter, that is about 1,170 kW. As wavemaking drag predominates, the speed would be around 4 knots, less than that a Wärtsilä-Sulzer RTA96-C (80,000 kW) would propel the ship, around 25 to 30 knots. Shipping times to/from China to the USA would increase more than the difference in speed, as the solar ship would want to stay closer to the equator.

When we totally stop using fossil fuel, some combination of wind and solar/batteries would likely be the most economic for most ocean transportation. Hydrogen or biofuels might make sense for ice breakers and similar high latitude/wintertime, or nuclear.

You've elabotated my argument for me. See my reply to Oils4AsphaultOnly for more. BTW, crew provisions for a cargo ship make up a miniscule amount of volume/weight. It's the lack of speed, reliability, route choices and allowable conditions that will hold wind/solar/battery ships back.

I don't see container ships likely to go with any kind of wind hybrid propulsion system, as they tend nowadays to have service speeds over 20 knots, not to mention masting would interfere with loading/unloading and they'd have to be enormously tall, which adds structural and stability as well as clearance issues. I think tankers and bulk (ore or grain) carriers, which generally have service speeds in the low to mid-teens, are where we'll see hybrids first, assuming that losing a couple of knots is acceptable.

Of course, if the situation gets really dire we may have to go back to sail for everything, but in that case we can probably kiss modern industrial economies goodbye.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:52 pm

All GCC:
Equinor, RWE join Europe’s biggest green hydrogen project: NortH2-project
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/1 ... rthh2.html

Equinor and RWE have joined the NortH2 project, which aims to produce green hydrogen using renewable electricity from offshore wind off the coast of Netherlands of about 4 gigawatts by 2030, and 10+ gigawatts by 2040, kickstarting the hydrogen economy in Northwest Europe.

NortH2 was launched in February 2020, with Shell, Groningen Seaports Gasunie and the province of Groningen. The project will complete a feasibility study by 2021, with the aim to start project development activities in the second half of 2021.

The project will have a capacity of 1 GW in 2027, 4 GW by 2030 and 10+ GW by 2040 for electrolysis. This equates to 0.4 million tonnes of green hydrogen production in 2030 and 1 million tonnes green hydrogen production by 2040. This can abate 8 to 10 million tonnes of CO2 emissions. This is equivalent to the yearly emissions from road traffic in Norway. . . .

The North Sea has a great potential for large-scale wind development, there is extensive existing natural gas infrastructure that is suitable for storage and large-scale transport of hydrogen, and there are large industrial clusters in the Netherlands and Germany as well as heavy-duty vehicle OEMs that could economically benefit from a first mover advantage.

Bosch plans to start full-scale production of SOFCs in 2024
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/1 ... bosch.html

Bosch plans to start full-scale production of distributed power stations based on solid oxide fuel-cell (SOFC) technology; hence its agreement to intensify its alliance with Ceres Power. Bosch is positioning itself clearly as a systems supplier for stationary fuel cells with its own value creation in the cell and stack segment.

Following a successful prototype construction phase, the two companies now want to press ahead, initially with the pre-commercialization process for stationary fuel cells. For SOFC systems, Bosch is aiming for an annual production capacity of some 200 megawatts. This is enough to supply around 400,000 people with electricity in their homes. . . .

One intended application of SOFC technology is in small, distributed, connectivity-enabled power stations, which can then be used in cities, factories, trade and commerce, data centers, and electric vehicle charging infrastructure. Bosch estimates that the market for decentralized power generation will reach a volume of €20 billion by 2030. . . .

Pilot plants based on solid oxide fuel cells are already being successfully tested at various Bosch locations. The SOFC systems can be operated with eco-friendly biogas or natural gas.

IHS Markit: annual investments in green hydrogen production to exceed $1 billion by 2023
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/1 ... hsgh2.html

. . . The elevated investment outlook is attributed to falling costs and policy support from governments looking to shift towards low-carbon economies.

Operating capacity for splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis technology currently stands at 82 MW with a pipeline of more than 23 GW, according to the IHS Markit Power-to-X tracker. This pipeline—including projects announced, planned and under construction—is up from less than 8 GW at the end of 2019 and 5 GW at the end of 2018. Electrolysis production is ramping up with multiple “giga-factories” under development. . . .

The growth in the electrolysis pipeline has been driven by falling costs and policy support.

Green hydrogen production costs are down 40% since 2015 and are expected to fall by a further 40% through 2025. Reductions in the costs of renewable power account for two thirds of the reduction in the cost of green hydrogen seen since 2015 with one third due to reductions in the cost of the electrolysis equipment. Through 2025, the main driver of green hydrogen cost reductions is expected to be the development of larger electrolysis projects. By 2030, IHS Markit expect that green hydrogen costs could drop below $2/kg where it would compete with hydrogen produced from natural gas with carbon capture.

Targets and support framework being defined. Low-carbon hydrogen is a major component of many governments post-COVID recovery plans and their long-term climate strategies. 6 European countries, the European Commission, Russia and Chile have all released hydrogen strategies since May 2020. The strategies lay out production targets for low-carbon hydrogen and electrolysis and start to define the support that will be available to project developers. . . .

Modelling by IHS Markit shows that by the early-2040s, production of green hydrogen could be the single largest use of electricity exceeding industrial electricity use. To meet this demand, deployment of low-carbon power generation—particularly in regions with high quality renewable resources—will accelerate. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:13 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:02 pm
I don't see container ships likely to go with any kind of wind hybrid propulsion system, as they tend nowadays to have service speeds over 20 knots, not to mention masting would interfere with loading/unloading and they'd have to be enormously tall, which adds structural and stability as well as clearance issues. I think tankers and bulk (ore or grain) carriers, which generally have service speeds in the low to mid-teens, are where we'll see hybrids first, assuming that losing a couple of knots is acceptable.

Of course, if the situation gets really dire we may have to go back to sail for everything, but in that case we can probably kiss modern industrial economies goodbye.
Modern industrial economies depend on 20 knot plus shipping speeds? The things I learn on the intertubes.
WetEV
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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