sma7852
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Stoaty wrote:"Federal and California environmental regulators accused Volkswagen of using software that cheats pollution testing in nearly 500,000 recent model VWs and Audis by circumventing emission standards in its diesel cars... Volkswagen and Audi vehicles from model years 2009-2015 have the software, which uses an algorithm that detects when the vehicle is undergoing pollution tests and changes the way it performs from when it is being driven on the open road."

Hard to believe an auto maker would stoop to this ;)

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/l ... story.html

[MOD NOTE - clarify title -drees]
I am so mad about this

sparky
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:14 pm

So if your the EPA or CARB, and you actually have VW's nuts in a vise, what do you do next?
The value of the fine could be as much as $18B.
I'll start.
Perhaps:
Tell them they can sell only EVs in the U.S. until:
1) VW invests $5B in a U.S. battery gigafactory to produce packs for at least 100,000 cars /yr.
2) Starting in 2018, VW builds/sells a minimum of 50,000 200mi EVs at cost.
3) VW installs/maintains a supercharger network allowing coast to coast travel.
4) VW sells 482,000 200mi+ BEVs in the U.S.

Maybe they'll learn to kick the diesel habit and all the "clean diesel" b.s. that goes with it.
p.s. I know, I know. The govt is picking winners (EVs) and losers (diesel) here. But EVs are a clear winner, except on cost and infrastructure, over diesel.

Other ways to re-direct anger?

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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:38 pm

How's this:

Prohibit VW from selling any diesel vehicles in the US for the period of time that they were scamming the law. Five years. Boom, they're out of the business. To be punitive, perhaps VW should be prohibited from selling gasoline vehicles as well for the same period. Oh, and then make them fix all previously sold diesels (e.g., make them meet the 2016 standards or pull them off the roads, being forced to buy them from every owner). Then allow them to "sell" as many EVs as they want.
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TomT
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:18 pm

And to be fair, GM should be prohibited from selling any vehicles with an ignition switch, key, or fob for the same period...
Reddy wrote:Prohibit VW from selling any diesel vehicles in the US for the period of time that they were scamming the law. Five years. Boom, they're out of the business.
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:09 am

GRA wrote:The interesting thing will be if the fact that their diesels' are regularly reported to exceed EPA hwy mpg ratings in the real world is due to this.
As a designer of performance chips for Mitsubishi cars, I have always wondered how these manufacturers are getting such high mpg without increasing NOx. When you look at the charts, as you lean out the Air-Fuel Ratio, hydrocarbon output goes down, and gas mileage rises, but the NOx emissions increase, which is why they picked the 14.7:1 AF Ratio years ago, as a compromise between the two. My friend with a newish Jetta has always bragged about his great mpg, almost as good as my Prius when driving 70 mph, which told me they must be running the car VERY lean.
make them fix all previously sold diesels (e.g., make them meet the 2016 standards or pull them off the roads, being forced to buy them from every owner).
My friend knows that any fix for his Jetta is going to effect gas mileage and performance, so he says he will refuse to take it in for the modifications. I'm supposing that will be the reaction of most owners, so how do you force them to fix their gross polluter? If the car is newer, they could deny you warranty coverage until you get it fixed, but what about all of them that are out of warranty? I can't see an easy remedy for this, but I hope that VW doesn't get off with a simple hand-slap. :roll: At $35,000 fine per car, they should just take them all back, crush them, and give the people a new VW that does meet emissions.
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Stoaty
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:54 am

keydiver wrote:My friend knows that any fix for his Jetta is going to effect gas mileage and performance, so he says he will refuse to take it in for the modifications. I'm supposing that will be the reaction of most owners, so how do you force them to fix their gross polluter?
I don't know about other states, but in California their vehicle will probably fail the smog check if they can't show they have gotten the fix. That means they wouldn't be able to re-register their vehicle for operation on the road.
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TomT
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Re: Auto Maker Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:00 am

That is the maximum possible fine. Just as with GM (which faced a maximum possible fine of 13 billion for the ignition switch debacle), they will actually pay but a small fraction of that... Cadillac faced a fine of 4 billion for their AC software cheat many years ago and actually paid only $350,000. In all cases, the cost of the recall was greater than the fine levied...
palmermd wrote:wow, fines of $35,500 per car. More than the sales price. It really is hard to believe they would even attempt to put this type of software into a vehicle. Glad they got caught and are getting a fine that will keep others from trying the same thing.
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TomT
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:06 am

This only applies to gasoline cars. Diesels, which is what the offending vehicles are, are very different animals and the stoichiometric ratio does not apply to them. Diesels run a MUCH higher A/F ratio as they are unthrottled.
keydiver wrote:As a designer of performance chips for Mitsubishi cars, I have always wondered how these manufacturers are getting such high mpg without increasing NOx. When you look at the charts, as you lean out the Air-Fuel Ratio, hydrocarbon output goes down, and gas mileage rises, but the NOx emissions increase, which is why they picked the 14.7:1 AF Ratio years ago, as a compromise between the two.
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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:28 am

They probably turned off EGR when not undergoing smog test. First thing I did on my '03 TDI. I hate exhaust gas recirculation.

Gonna be tough to get owners to accept a fix that costs them both mpg and acceleration!

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Re: Volkswagon Group Games Pollution Testing, Gets Caught

Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:11 am

kolmstead wrote:They probably turned off EGR when not undergoing smog test. First thing I did on my '03 TDI. I hate exhaust gas recirculation.

Gonna be tough to get owners to accept a fix that costs them both mpg and acceleration!
As the owner of 2 - 2005 Passat TDI's, and now a 2011 Audi S3 TDI, all of which would run rings around my neighbors Prius in both mileage (close) and performance (not even in the same class) I am solidly a diesel fan.

FYI, these are all affected by this revelation .

They sell more diesel passenger cars overseas than gas, and with good reason..

I'm waiting for somebody to bring us a diesel hybrid, and when we do, it will probably be VW.

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gener ... wagen.html

Or Mazda ?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... -still-mia

Did they fail to meet the CARB standard, or did the just "cheat to get a better grade".
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