GRA
Posts: 13009
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:31 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:59 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
Retrofitting is more expensive, perhaps 2 months rent. L2 might be 4 months rent. No subsidy needed when the demand arrives. Landlords want a lower vacancy rate, and offering things renters want helps that. The demand will arrive, as BEVs are getting both lower priced and more capable. And yes, some apartments will be far more expensive to retrofit. As in only rent this if you have charging at work...

You are far too sanguine about the amount of work required, or the cost. After all, even L1 charging will be the single greatest long-duration load for any apartment, so you're probably talking about a capacity increase of at least 1/2, maybe double. You're almost certainly going to need a new service entrance if not separate meters, permits etc. The one likely cost-saving area is that no one much cares about the esthetics of carports and parking garages, so you can run the wiring in external conduit fixed to the walls/ceilings instead of having them internal. OTOH, the wire runs may be quite long, building codes may require burying wire runs for open parking spaces, and that still leaves the people who have to park curbside SoL.

OT: Although there are reliability, performance and vandalism issues with this even greater than with Tesla's robotic arm, if this can be made to work it could solve much of the cost, billing and hassle re retrofitting for charging:

ABG:
Volkswagen system lets you charge an EV in any parking garage

It involves a friendly, droid-like robot.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/28/vw- ... v-parking/


I'll keep an eye in this, but won't hold my breath in expectation that it will be widely deployable anytime soon.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:03 am

GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:59 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
EVs worldwide have been doubling every 2 to 3 years for quite a while. The USA has a lower EV market share than the world does.
Care to provide a list of countries with higher PEV adoption rates than the U.S., which don't have subsidies/perks/mandates?
Subsidies in other countries make some BEVs harder to find in the USA. Why ship it here when it is more subsidized there? What you would want is another Earth, with no subsidies for BEVs, to compare with. We don't have one...
GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:59 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
EV adoption isn't dependent on subsidies. Does $7,500 matter when buying a Porsche for $200k? And Telsa sells a lot of M3's with no subsidy. What EV subsidies do is speed up the curve, especially at the first.
Oh, come on, we're talking about mass market adoption,
The market is a distribution, not a single point. The place where EVs have an advantage is at the upper end of that distribution. As production of BEVs rises, the cost of a given BEV falls, and lower price BEVs gain advantage, and this will happen repeatingly until the only ICEs left are for the unusual cases, like rural drivers and city people that like to drive to very remote places. The range of advantage moves from the upper end to the upper middle to the middle to the lower middle to the lower. Leaving only the exotic uses and users.
Subsidies can speed this up a bit, and move it around a bit, but don't really change it.
GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:59 pm
But for the survey respondents who say that the price of BEVs needs to be about $36k, along with the range, charging speed, infrastructure and vehicle type variety required before they'll be mainstream, subsidies are most definitely needed. No current BEV can meet all their requirements at any price; innumerable ICEs can.
Fixed that for you. The future is not like today.
GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:59 pm
WetEV wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:27 pm
Retrofitting is more expensive, perhaps 2 months rent. L2 might be 4 months rent. No subsidy needed when the demand arrives. Landlords want a lower vacancy rate, and offering things renters want helps that. The demand will arrive, as BEVs are getting both lower priced and more capable. And yes, some apartments will be far more expensive to retrofit. As in only rent this if you have charging at work...
You are far too sanguine about the amount of work required, or the cost. After all, even L1 charging will be the single greatest long-duration load for any apartment, so you're probably talking about a capacity increase of at least 1/2, maybe double. You're almost certainly going to need a new service entrance if not separate meters, permits etc. The one likely cost-saving area is that no one much cares about the esthetics of carports and parking garages, so you can run the wiring in external conduit fixed to the walls/ceilings instead of having them internal. OTOH, the wire runs may be quite long, building codes may require burying wire runs for open parking spaces, and that still leaves the people who have to park curbside SoL.
Block heater outlet was part of rent, parking spots were not assigned and the electric power came from the common meter not from each apartment. It would be more expensive to wire directly to each apartment, so that's what you assume. Sad, and amusing.

L1 charging uses more electric power than block heaters so perhaps it might make sense with assigned parking/charging spots to have a meter per spot. L2, even more so. Or just a bill for a charging capable parking spot. Every case will be different, in some ways.

Remember that some cases will be harder, and perhaps impossible. Do the easy ones first.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:06 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:25 pm
What 10x cost? If I thought that was going to be the case, I wouldn't bother. The new Mirai costs about the same as a model 3LR, goes further in any conditions, won't lose range, and owning doesn't control where you live or work to the same degree that BEVs currently do, given the infrastructure. The cost of the latter has already dropped to the same range per car served as QCs, with more reductions to come thanks to even greater economies of scale. What remains is getting the cost of green H2 down to gasoline-conpetitive, and while that's still several years away it's getting a lot closer. Did you read the IRENA report on electrolyzers I provided a link to in the H2 & FCEV topic? To repeat what I've said many times before, it's the cost of H2 that will ultimately determine the success or failure of FCEVs, not the costs of the cars or the fueling infrastructure. Whether or not FCEVs succeed, we will see H2/FCs used for industry, long distance commercial transport, longer-term energy storage and grid supply etc.
Amusing.

Mirai has a limited lifetime due to the high pressure tank, and loses power with time.

I can't fuel a hydrogen car without a drive of a thousand miles. Owning a hydrogen car limits where you live to part of California (and a few other places with one fueling station total). I don't want to live in California.

A BEV is just more convenient.

If green hydrogen is cheaper than gasoline, green electric power will be a quarter the price of gasoline. Or less.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

cwerdna
Posts: 12121
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:56 pm

Sorry add more noise to an H2 thread but since the topic for MUD dwellers came up, I received an FB post in my feed from Bay Area Air Quality Management District. It says:
The Volkswagen Light Duty Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program, a $5 million statewide program funding EV infrastructure, will open next month. Funding will be available to purchase and install new charging stations for battery-electric vehicles.
In advance of the solicitation, the VW administrator is seeking comments from interested parties. To submit comments and questions, visit the program website before the January 28 deadline at www.californiavwtrust.org/ev-infrastructure.
The URL leads to a page that begins with the below. Maybe this is something GRA should be submitting feedback on?
Light Duty Zero-Emission Infrastructure, Electric

The Volkswagen Light Duty Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program, a statewide program funding electric vehicle infrastructure, is scheduled to open February 2021. $5 million in Volkswagen Environmental Mitigation Trust funding will be available to purchase and install new charging stations for battery electric vehicles while:

· Directing a minimum of 50% of funds to disadvantaged and low-income communities; and

· Expanding EV charging access state-wide and closing geographic gaps in coverage.

Draft Guidance and Feedback Form
In advance of the solicitation, the VW administrator developed a draft guidance document and is seeking comment from interested parties. To review the draft guidance, download it here. To give feedback on the draft guidance, fill out this form. The deadline for feedback is January 28th, 2021.
It lists MUD as a property type further down on the page.

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