WetEV
Posts: 4131
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Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:10 am

GRA wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:51 pm
But while California has the nation’s largest EV market, home charging access still drives many EV purchase or lease decisions. Equity is core to this challenge, as many MUD residents live in disadvantaged communities or at low- and moderate-income levels. Electric mobility solutions must reach all Californians, not just those with an easier path to EV adoption. . . .
Well, that's tightly packed.

MUD residents tend to buy used cars. Once cheaper EVs are much more common, and then 3-5 years later, so perhaps 5 to 10 years from now, lower and moderate income people will start be be interested in buying EVs as they are getting common and getting cheap. At that point, property owners will start to see a return on investment in EV charging investments as it would allow them to keep and attract tenants. The investments are fairly modest, and can take several forms.

Yes, doesn't fix the equality problem. Or improve streaming video access. Or make better avocado toast.

GRA wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:51 pm
Many MUDs have assigned parking, making equal charging challenging without installing chargers at each parking stall – likely a cost-prohibitive option. Installing charging infrastructure in common areas or shared parking may be easier, but is less reliable if chargers are available on a first-come, first-served basis. Where space is limited, charging spaces might compete with parking spaces, partly because California differentiates parking spaces from charging spaces. As the state’s vehicle fleet converts to electric, this will become a larger sticking point as chargers are required in more spaces. . . .
Equal charging access isn't needed until everyone has an electric car. Do laws need to change that differentiates parking spaces from charging spaces? Maybe.
GRA wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:51 pm
Despite growing awareness of the need to serve MUD populations, consumer interest remains relatively low,
It is just too early. EVs are still mostly an upper income market, not because of charging, because EVs are a higher cost premium item. Quicker, cleaner, quieter, generally nicer. And cool. MUD population will become interested when serviceable and reliable EVs are cheap. If a cheap EV saves someone enough to pay $50/month for a parking spot with charging and have more money left over, then it gets more interesting. And higher priority.

To impose charging requirements would be expensive and complex. And pointless, until the time has come.

It hasn't. Yet.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oilpan4
Posts: 1809
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:50 pm

Where I work, which isn't a US based company, but infact a company from a "progressive European country" doesn't want to pay to install chargers, hell they don't even want to install receptacles so people can bring their own evse.
Actually there's a spot where multiple different 120 and 240v receptacles are available for the once every 4 or 5 years when they have contractors do a big project they don't even want people using those.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

SageBrush
Posts: 5608
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Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:05 pm

Last week I found myself agreeing with Lefty, and today I find a completely reasonable post by WetEV
As they say, sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

At least GRA is still in la la land.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:26 pm

WetEV wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:05 am
GRA wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:58 am
If you consider providing home charging for almost half of California's population of nearly 40 million sometime in the next 15-30 years* to be a molehill-sized problem, allow me to offer you a great deal on the Golden Gate Bridge.


*The state plans to ban ICE sales in 2035, and we want to hit net-zero carbon by 2045. And of course there's the rest of the country as well.
Ever live some place very cold? Where plug-ins for car block heaters are common at apartments, grocery stores and such?

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8605937 ... 312!8i6656

I know what those gray boxes are. I was plugging in in the 1970's. This is not a mountain sized problem.

As for a complete ban of ICE sales in 2035? Not realistic. Not because of urban apartment charging. Because of rural people.
No, I haven't although I'm aware that plugs for block heaters exist in some of the coldest states. What does that have to do with California or the rest of the country trying to retrofit all the MUDs with charging in the next 15-30 years?

Being bored last night I took a walk aover to the largest MUD in my extended neighborhood. It's fairly new, consists of two tripe-tier blocks (48 and 42 apts.for a total of 90, with a carport for each apt. The carports are long enough to fit two cars in tandem, and many of them did so. Care to guess how many outlets there were to serve the 90 carports? Zero. Can it be wired? Sure. Who's paying for it?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4131
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:33 pm

GRA wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:26 pm
Being bored last night I took a walk aover to the largest MUD in my extended neighborhood. It's fairly new, consists of two tripe-tier blocks (48 and 42 apts.for a total of 90, with a carport for each apt. The carports are long enough to fit two cars in tandem, and many of them did so. Care to guess how many outlets there were to serve the 90 carports? Zero. Can it be wired? Sure. Who's paying for it?
So what's the monthly rental range?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oilpan4
Posts: 1809
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:12 pm

The longer that the Hydrogen personal vehicle experiment goes on the better batteries look.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:31 pm

Can't speak to the range, as there's only one unit available now. They're described as luxury apartments, and they're certainly more upscale than is typical for the area; each unit (1-3 bdrm, 1-2.5 bath) has a balcony with privacy walls and apparently its own washer/dryer, there's a pool, dog park and other amenities along with the two-car carports. The one unit available is a 2 bdrm/1.5 bath just under 800 sq. ft. with hardwood floors and is $2,450/month, so not San Francisco prices but hardly low-income renters either. The vehicles I saw were also newish and more upscale. The website makes much of its location central to several freeways, that it's within a block or so of three bus lines and walking distance to a BART station, plus biking distance to lots of stores.

"Walking distance to BART" is a bit of a stretch, as I'm a fast walker who lives about 2 blocks closer and it takes me 10 minutes, which is the max. time most surveys indicate people are willing to walk to rapid transit (only 5 minutes for non-express mass transit like local buses), but the stores within bike range are accurate, as I walk or bike to all of them.

All in all, this is exactly the demographic that would be interested in and could afford current BEVs up to say the M3/Y price range, so if they can't charge at home 10 years after mass production BEVs were available, it will be decades before low income apartment renters can. I also checked a couple of more modest apartment buildings to see if any improvements re charging have occurred in the two years or so since I last looked. Nope, still nothing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
Posts: 4131
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:48 am

GRA wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:31 pm
2 bdrm {for} $2,450/month, so not San Francisco prices but hardly low-income renters either. The vehicles I saw were also newish and more upscale.

All in all, this is exactly the demographic that would be interested in and could afford current BEVs up to say the M3/Y price range, so if they can't charge at home 10 years after mass production BEVs were available, it will be decades before low income apartment renters can. I also checked a couple of more modest apartment buildings to see if any improvements re charging have occurred in the two years or so since I last looked. Nope, still nothing.
Sounds like a solidly middle-class sort of place. That would be a better place to watch than the more modest buildings. If you want to find charging today try something like this:

https://www.baxteronbroadway.com/amenities/

Or just go to Craig's list:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa ... =all+dates

Oh my, a few choices. o.O

112 as of this morning. Mostly upscale from your example, however.

I notice that a lot of buildings in Oakland are offering 1, 2 or even 3 months free rent to sign a year lease. Pandemic pricing, eh? Nice for renters, ouch for owners.

Would a L1 outlet cost 2 or 3 months rent? How many month's rent would a L2 station cost? Oh, not the worst case numbers, the best case numbers. Because mostly the best case installs will happen first.

I doubt if any "10 year" plan will accurately cover the details of how charging will spread. As the price of new EVs drops, and the number of nice used EVs at lower prices increases, the fraction of renters with an EV will increase, and the median rent for an apartment with charging will decrease. Gradually, then suddenly. We are still in the gradual phase.

Not a large commitment to EV changing might take vacancy from horrid 80% to nice 95%. When the ROI looks nice, it will happen.

Just like plugs for block heaters.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

WetEV
Posts: 4131
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:46 pm

I had an example, and the ad changed today.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8070983 ... 384!8i8192

Left most unit.


So this time I archived the ad.

https://web.archive.org/web/20201227234 ... 69740.html
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

Oilpan4
Posts: 1809
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: California retail H2 fuel stations

Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:14 pm

At the moment electric cars are kind of a toy for the rich. Because for now you have to be able to buy one, have a place to park it and be able to charge it.
For hydrogen you have to wait for a hydrogen station to be built near you.
At least with electric it's almost everywhere, just have to get some chargers put in.
For hydrogen it takes what a multi million dollar fueling station?
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

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