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Nubo
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:25 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote: My point is that coal IS fungible.
I'm skeptical. The cost of transport limits its export potential. I thinkk that is why the lion's share of coal exports are not thermal coal
It does, but there are plenty of other variables and ever-increasing demand for energy as the rest of the world economies rise and people aspire to higher standards of living. Tar sands oil isn't cheap to extract and would never have made sense decades ago. Supply and demand changed that. Every time there's an energy crisis, coal is looked at as our safety-net. It will be used sooner or later unless we come up with something unquestionably easier to obtain and in sufficient quantity to meet emergent demands.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:11 pm

iPlug wrote:Would like to find how to make them want to care to know the individual behavior costs and care to actually do something tangible about that.
Only one way really: Force them to pay for their pollution, much the same way a puppy's nose is rubbed in an 'accident.'
Then they will decide that paying x now to avoid 10x pollution costs is quite the bargain.

I call that education. Did you see my thread on AGW costs ? Somehow the trumpers that read it were unable to grasp the most basic point, that carbon emission avoidance is vastly cheaper than damages and mitigation.
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iPlug
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:05 pm

SageBrush wrote:Only one way really: Force them to pay for their pollution, much the same way a puppy's nose is rubbed in an 'accident.'
Then they will decide that paying x now to avoid 10x pollution costs is quite the bargain.
Force would work, but would be nice for them to actually want to do the "right" thing. Most of us know not to pillage our neighbors, yet these same folks find themselves too uncaring to try and stem their AGW impact as they won't ever meet >99.999% of the people they've harmed.

Also, to force them to internalize their negative externalities by paying for their pollution costs means enough people have to take it seriously enough that we can elect the legislators to make it enforceable law.
SageBrush wrote:Did you see my thread on AGW costs ? Somehow the trumpers that read it were unable to grasp the most basic point, that carbon emission avoidance is vastly cheaper than damages and mitigation.
Yes, they have further to make it along the spectrum of knowing->caring->implementing; they don't care to know, and knowing seems slightly disruptive to their lifestyle, so they make sure they don't know
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:18 pm

iPlug wrote:but would be nice for them to actually want to do the "right" thing.
I don't really care to judge what is right or wrong; I only want them to pay for their choices. If they want to pay $0.5 a kWh for coal sourced electricity I will not stand in their way.

It is simply a matter of taking responsibility for one's actions. Incidentally, Colorado recently decided to include the cost of carbon pollution in fiduciary decision making regarding future power plants approved by the state PUC. It is beyond amazing that this has not been SOP everywhere .... forever.
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Oilpan4
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:29 pm

Only 34% said they would be very likely or somewhat likely to pay an extra $100 a year in taxes to help, including 25% of Republicans and 33% of independents, according to the poll. The results were similar for higher power bills.
Looks like these numbers aren't changing much.
Pollsters earlier this year found about 2/3 of likely voters unwilling to pay more than $10 per month to fix climate change.
Works for me.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:44 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Only 34% said they would be very likely or somewhat likely to pay an extra $100 a year in taxes to help, including 25% of Republicans and 33% of independents, according to the poll. The results were similar for higher power bills.
Looks like these numbers aren't changing much.
Pollsters earlier this year found about 2/3 of likely voters unwilling to pay more than $10 per month to fix climate change.
Works for me.
Only because you do not have a clue how much your pollution costs, and you live in a trumpian fantasy where the costs are magically dumped on others.

And one more time: climate change cannot be 'fixed,' it can be reduced.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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GRA
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:04 pm

GCR:
In spite of tougher standards, European cars get dirtier
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... et-dirtier
European automakers need to sell many more electric cars, but their customers aren't buying. Instead, they're buying more gas powered SUVs that emit more pollution than the cars they drove before.

The ramifications for automakers could be dire if they can't sell more electric cars by next year.

The European Union is scheduled to introduce the strictest standards for global-warming-related carbon-dioxide emissions in the world starting next year, requiring cars sold there to average about 57 mpg on the European test cycle (which is somewhat gentler than the one in the U.S.) If they don't, they could face fines of up 33 billion euros ($37 billion) per year.

The standards are set to ratchet up by another 15 percent in 2025 and by a total of 37.5 percent by 2030.

While European automakers publicly express confidence about meeting the standards, many independent experts say most are unprepared, and the German automakers met with German Economics Minister Peter Altmaier in a summit on Monday to plead for more consumer incentives for electric cars, according to a report in the Wall Street Journal. . . .

In the face of these increasing targets, European carbuyers are following in Americans' footsteps, choosing more large crossover vehicles and vans, powered by gas engines rather than electrics or, the old European standby, diesels. (Since diesels get better fuel economy than gas cars, they produce less global warming CO2 pollution despite their dirtier exhaust filled with smog-causing soot and nitrogen oxide emissions.)

Before the Volkswagen diesel emissions crisis, European automakers were counting on diesels to help meet the planned increases in CO2 emissions standards.

A new report by the European Environment Agency showed that in the past two years, emissions from European cars reversed a steady decline from 2010 to 2016, as more drivers chose larger cars and abandoned diesels in favor of larger gasoline engines. Carbon-dioxide emissions rose on average 0.4 grams per mile in 2017 and accelerated the increase with a rise of 2 grams per mile again in 2018, the report shows. . . .

Gas-powered cars accounted for 60 percent of sales across the EU in 2018, a near reversal of the 55 percent diesel market penetration before the VW diesel scandal. Diesels have dropped to 36 percent of the market and are concentrated in vans used for deliveries in Europe.

At the same time new diesel vehicles that use cleaner emissions systems no longer have such a fuel economy benefit over gasoline cars. And one in three new cars sold in the EU plus Iceland were SUVs, the report notes, most of them with gas engines. These SUVs averaged 10 percent higher CO2 emissions than the average European car.

The only countries in the study where emissions per car dropped were those with the highest sales of electric and plug-in cars: Iceland, Sweden, the Netherlands, Estonia, Finland, and Malta. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:05 pm

Dup. post deleted.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:18 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Oilpan4 wrote:
Only 34% said they would be very likely or somewhat likely to pay an extra $100 a year in taxes to help, including 25% of Republicans and 33% of independents, according to the poll. The results were similar for higher power bills.
Looks like these numbers aren't changing much.
Pollsters earlier this year found about 2/3 of likely voters unwilling to pay more than $10 per month to fix climate change.
Works for me.
Only because you do not have a clue how much your pollution costs, and you live in a trumpian fantasy where the costs are magically dumped on others.

And one more time: climate change cannot be 'fixed,' it can be reduced.
Not me, 2/3 of likely voters.

Yeah it can't be fixed. Any monetary confiscation just provides false hope.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: Americans demand 'aggressive' climate action — as long as it doesn't cost much

Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:38 pm

Oilpan4 wrote: Not me, 2/3 of likely voters.
Then why do you say "Works for me." ?
Are you adding FOS to your resume ?
Yeah it can't be fixed. Any monetary confiscation just provides false hope.
No
The amount of damage is paramount. It is a sliding scale.
The bozos of the world cannot stop the damage they have dialed in but they can reduce or stop further damage.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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