GRA
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:34 pm

Nubo wrote: Meh. It's like pissing in the ocean. CARB could make far more of an impact with rules that have wide-spread effect instead of diddling with silly little stuff like this. But they never did have a lot of sense. When I moved to CA I was forced to hand over $300 because my car (which was mechanically identical in all 50 states) didn't have a "california emissions sticker". Later they helped "kill the electric car". Screw CARB.
You mean rules like requiring each manufacturer to sell a certain number of ZEVs,or buy credits from another one? Or requiring power plants to clean up their act? Or having (and fighting the current administration to retain) the most stringent vehicle emissions requirements in the country? Or requiring a shift to zero carbon electricity? Or or or . . .

They're doing all of that, too, but as areas with large numbers of trucks and buses (most of which have diesel engines) moving at slow speeds with frequent stops such as airports and ports tend to have the highest concentrations of emissions, especially particulates, as well as the largest numbers of low-income people living nearby or along the route, you get a tremendous bang for the buck by mandating changes in those locations, not to mention the environmental justice angle. Airport shuttles are particularly well-suited for a switch to ZEVs, as they travel only one or two short, flat routes at slow speeds with frequent stops all day long with well-known traffic peaks, and charging and maintenance can all be concentrated in a small area.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:01 pm

Nubo wrote:Meh. It's like pissing in the ocean. CARB could make far more of an impact with rules that have wide-spread effect instead of diddling with silly little stuff like this.
And what rules are those? Keep in mind CARB has no power outside of California, and even within the state there are things they can and cannot do.

And I don't consider this "silly little stuff." Every little bit helps, especially in the most populous state in the Union. "Think globally, act locally."
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
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Nubo
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:57 pm

GRA wrote:
Nubo wrote: Meh. It's like pissing in the ocean. CARB could make far more of an impact with rules that have wide-spread effect instead of diddling with silly little stuff like this. But they never did have a lot of sense. When I moved to CA I was forced to hand over $300 because my car (which was mechanically identical in all 50 states) didn't have a "california emissions sticker". Later they helped "kill the electric car". Screw CARB.
You mean rules like requiring each manufacturer to sell a certain number of ZEVs,or buy credits from another one? Or requiring power plants to clean up their act? Or having (and fighting the current administration to retain) the most stringent vehicle emissions requirements in the country? Or requiring a shift to zero carbon electricity? Or or or . . .

They're doing all of that, too, but as areas with large numbers of trucks and buses (most of which have diesel engines) moving at slow speeds with frequent stops such as airports and ports tend to have the highest concentrations of emissions, especially particulates, as well as the largest numbers of low-income people living nearby or along the route, you get a tremendous bang for the buck by mandating changes in those locations, not to mention the environmental justice angle. Airport shuttles are particularly well-suited for a switch to ZEVs, as they travel only one or two short, flat routes at slow speeds with frequent stops all day long with well-known traffic peaks, and charging and maintenance can all be concentrated in a small area.
This is LA traffic. Not sure EV airport shuttles are going to make a dent in emissions. Image
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

RonDawg
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:56 am

CARB's mandates will slowly improve the air quality situation, even if the traffic worsens.

I grew up in LA. I remember in the 1970's just how bad the air quality was. First Stage Smog Alerts were frequent, Second Stage ones were occasional. There was a time in 1974 when we even reached the Third Stage Smog Alert: https://www.sierraclub.org/planet/2017/ ... eat-itself

Nowadays First Stage alerts seem to happen at about the same rate as Second Stage ones were in the 1970's. And Second Stage ones are extremely rare. It's even more incredible given how much LA's population has grown, no exploded, in the last 45 years.

So CARB HAS been making significant progress. You just haven't been to LA long enough to see it happen.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
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Nubo
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:19 am

RonDawg wrote:So CARB HAS been making significant progress. You just haven't been to LA long enough to see it happen.
I haven't claimed that CARB has not helped make progress. And I've witnessed the LA cleanup personally. Yet I still think the special airport-shuttle regulations are unnecessary and not particularly meaningful. And taking my $300 for no legitimate reason was stupid. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

By the way, the out-of-state fee was later ruled unconstitutional and the money paid back with interest. So at least someone agreed with me in that particular case of CARB overreach.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

GRA
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:38 pm

Nubo wrote:
GRA wrote:
Nubo wrote: Meh. It's like pissing in the ocean. CARB could make far more of an impact with rules that have wide-spread effect instead of diddling with silly little stuff like this. But they never did have a lot of sense. When I moved to CA I was forced to hand over $300 because my car (which was mechanically identical in all 50 states) didn't have a "california emissions sticker". Later they helped "kill the electric car". Screw CARB.
You mean rules like requiring each manufacturer to sell a certain number of ZEVs,or buy credits from another one? Or requiring power plants to clean up their act? Or having (and fighting the current administration to retain) the most stringent vehicle emissions requirements in the country? Or requiring a shift to zero carbon electricity? Or or or . . .

They're doing all of that, too, but as areas with large numbers of trucks and buses (most of which have diesel engines) moving at slow speeds with frequent stops such as airports and ports tend to have the highest concentrations of emissions, especially particulates, as well as the largest numbers of low-income people living nearby or along the route, you get a tremendous bang for the buck by mandating changes in those locations, not to mention the environmental justice angle. Airport shuttles are particularly well-suited for a switch to ZEVs, as they travel only one or two short, flat routes at slow speeds with frequent stops all day long with well-known traffic peaks, and charging and maintenance can all be concentrated in a small area.
This is LA traffic. Not sure EV airport shuttles are going to make a dent in emissions. Image

See "requiring each manufacturer to sell a certain number of ZEVs,or buy credits from another one", as well as "the most stringent vehicle emissions requirements in the country", not to mention funding ZEV mass transit. As it is, a 500,000 metric ton reduction (total lifetime, I assume) from only 1,000 vehicles is a fair-sized dent, considering there are about 35 million registered vehicles in California. Of course, as California's annual GHG emissions in 2016 were 429.4 million tons, the lifetime reduction from those 1,000 buses is only about 0.11% of a single year for the state, and no one's claiming that this alone is enough, which is why CARB has all their other requirements. Then there's the local air pollution effects, e.g.
Study: Air Pollution From LAX Affects Residents Up To 10 Miles Away
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/05 ... iles-away/
A study published in the American Chemical Society’s Environmental Science and Technology journal found that pollution levels within nine square miles of the airport are 10 times higher than in other parts of LA and affects neighborhoods up to 10 miles east of the airport.
Now, that's mainly concerned with aircraft emissions of ultrafine particles rather than DPM, but you can bet wherever there's a concentration of heavy diesel vehicles, the particulate emissions will be strongly elevated.

Do you consider CARB's requirement that drayage trucks at ports not idle but instead use electric power hookups to run their reefers while waiting, while writing regs athat will eventually require drayage trucks to be ZEV, to also be "like pissing in the ocean"? Having worked at container loading docks in the port of Oakland a long time ago, I can tell you that between trucks, trains and ships all blowing diesel exhaust, the air quality could sometimes be pretty bad, and unlike the residents of West Oakland who had to breathe that crap all the time, I didn't live there.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:30 pm

Nubo wrote:And taking my $300 for no legitimate reason was stupid. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

By the way, the out-of-state fee was later ruled unconstitutional and the money paid back with interest. So at least someone agreed with me in that particular case of CARB overreach.
It sounds like your disagreement with CARB is more for personal reasons than anything substantive.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

SageBrush
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:29 pm

RonDawg wrote:
Nubo wrote:Meh. It's like pissing in the ocean. CARB could make far more of an impact with rules that have wide-spread effect instead of diddling with silly little stuff like this.
And what rules are those? Keep in mind CARB has no power outside of California, and even within the state there are things they can and cannot do.

And I don't consider this "silly little stuff." Every little bit helps, especially in the most populous state in the Union. "Think globally, act locally."
Spot on with your comments, except for CARB reach. The CARB compliant states to varying degrees give CARB clout outside of CA.
Personally, I like CARB reaching into airports for an additional reason: it is a perfect opportunity to give people a chance to take their first EV ride
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11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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Nubo
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:28 pm

RonDawg wrote:
Nubo wrote:And taking my $300 for no legitimate reason was stupid. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

By the way, the out-of-state fee was later ruled unconstitutional and the money paid back with interest. So at least someone agreed with me in that particular case of CARB overreach.
It sounds like your disagreement with CARB is more for personal reasons than anything substantive.
Their shennanigans regarding electric cars weren't personal to me.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Nubo
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Re: GCC: CARB approves zero-emission airport shuttle rule

Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:46 pm

GRA wrote: Do you consider CARB's requirement that drayage trucks at ports not idle but instead use electric power hookups to run their reefers while waiting, while writing regs athat will eventually require drayage trucks to be ZEV, to also be "like pissing in the ocean"?
I don't know enough about "drayage trucks" to answer that question. It'd be nice if the cargo ships weren't emitting their plumes of bunker-oil exhaust in port. THAT is some nasty shit.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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