WetEV
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Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:14 am

GRA wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:51 pm
Of course, if the implementation of such zones here is very delayed, it may be that pure ZEVs have come down enough in price by then to see mass market adoption, and there's no need to make provision for a transitional tech like PHEVs.
An interesting subject. A new topic.

Consider a range of use cases. At one end is the vast majority of driving, which is near home and can be served by home or workplace or curbside or parking garage charging at a fairly low rate and cost. At the other end is driving to remote locations where charging is rare and/or expensive.

Might a PHEV be the lowest cost way to handle the latter cases?

Yes, might not be a gasoline hybrid, but perhaps biofuel or hydrogen or aluminum-air or zinc-air or ...

Putting power wires into remote locations cost a lot of money. The more miles, the more money. And as the location becomes more remote, the fewer uses the wires get as fewer people would drive to there. Other ways of getting power there have similar objections, such as solar cells that are rarely used have a high fixed cost relative to the actual used power generated. Hauling gasoline or biofuel or aluminum-air batteries or hydrogen has the advantage of scaling with use rather than a high fixed cost. Also a primary battery using air is going to have more energy per unit mass as the air doesn't need to be carried along (on Earth, at least!), so fueling stations can be more widely spaced.
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salyavin
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:09 pm

What do you mean by long lasting? As much as I want gasoline cars to go the way of steam engines (slow, smoky, useful for history buffs and tourists) I don't see full gasoline cars going away for a couple decades. Some people drive cars for 20 years so if we stopped tomorrow it would take 20 years for them to become down to more classic car people who like fixing them.

All you really need is chargers every 50 miles or so and EVs to go 200+ miles on a charge so they have multiple chances to fill. We already have 200+ mile EVs (including LEAF Plus) and along interstates here we have chargers every 50 miles. As EA can feed me in the 70s the charge time with the kids is not bad either. The problem for me is there are roads that are not an interestate in the middle of nowhere I would love fast chargers. I am in Colorado I can give a number of examples one easy one is Great Sand Dunes National Park, I can make it there and there is a lizard park with a l2 charger or there are camp outlets, eithere way that is a long time so you'd have to stay overnight probably to get a good charge. Wyoming is a pain for me even on the interestate some l2s and camp no fast chargers at all, to get to Yellowstone I'd have to go through Utah and up that way. EVTrail is trying to get money to build we shall see.

Most people just drive within a couple hundred miles except for a vacation a couple times a year and even then many just fly somewhere. In the cases where they need to drive a long way a rental makes sense rather than ownership IMHO. People do not need to go more than 200 very often. Where I am I go to major mountain towns like Breckenridge easily in my LEAF and have charging, many Teslas and such go there too.
Why does an individual need a PHEV? I really don't see it. Rent one now and then when you go way off fast charging routes even then there is often RV plugs and l2 it's just too painful to go too far.

I have a hybrid there is "disgusting" (as my wife says) gasoline, oil changes, and other maintenence it needs like a regular gasser. they have shorter electric range. Longer term I see hybrids going to occasional rentals for going in the middle of nowhere until a DCFC is built within a hundred miles of it. I am sure gasoline stations were similar long ago.

With DCFCs remember no transport of fuel, once it is built it can just sit there no people manning it, no truck to deliver anything, some even have solar panels to help with the electric. I could imagine a battery system where solar charges the battery and the battery delivers the charge if you don't want to run cable way out there. That only works if the usage is not too high.

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Nubo
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:16 pm

salyavin wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:09 pm
....Longer term I see hybrids going to occasional rentals for going in the middle of nowhere until a DCFC is built within a hundred miles of it. I am sure gasoline stations were similar long ago. ...
Yep. During early attempts at driving across the continental US, motorists would sometimes have to purchase gasoline at pharmacies, where it was sold as a solvent.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

salyavin
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:16 pm

I didn't know that, thank you. I figured they had to do something before the gas stations were built and supplied.

GRA
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:51 pm

General stores also sold gas (sometimes heavily watered).

Back on topic, as many here know I believe that PHFCEVs have the potential to be the ZEV go-anywhere ICE replacement option, always assuming the price of renewable H2 can be made competitive with gas. Economies of scale and incremental technical improvements should reduce the price of the stacks to commercial viability (also see range-extenders below), and the cost of stations likewise. FCEVs already have similar capability and longevity to ICEs.

Note that when I say PHFCEV I'm talking about using the fuel cell as a range extender, with just enough power to maintain freeway speeds on the level or up a slight grade/into a moderate headwind, plus run the hotel loads. The battery pack handles accel and steep climbs, plus routine commuting. We're talking something like the i3 Rex power train, but with about 1/2 the power loading and a 'hold' mode.

For BEVs to be the all-around ICE replacement vehicle requires that they provide adequate range at an acceptable charging rate that's competitive with gas, for the useful life of the vehicle (they also need to be lighter or we'll be repairing/replacing our roads more frequently). Either that, or battery leasing/swapping will need to be the norm.

Note, this assumes that car ownership remains the norm, rather than some type of MaaS as Salyavin implies, and which I'm a fan of.
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