rmay635703
Posts: 563
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:40 am

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:02 am
rmay635703 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:51 pm
The above is really only true in Europe
Not just wrong, way wrong
The US federal credit alone flips the PHEV to below hybrid pricing, and this does not yet include state tax credits and all the other perks that PHEV purchases receive.

Image
Touché
So it’s below hybrid pricing until you pay back the tax 10 years?

Our state is stating it needs to move plug in vehicle fees to $1000 Due to losses and there are zero state subsidies

The Current $555 title + license on a plug in hybrid Is bad enough
The $665 title + license on a Bev is worse and they want to increase it even more.

I really don’t see how you can remotely compare a situation where you
1. Get a subsidy On purchase
2. Get lower taxes every year (compared to ice)
3. Charging infrastructure exists.

To the patchwork setup in the us where
1. You may get a subsidy (Most states have none)
2. You pay an increasing and uncertain tax amount Annually depending on where you are located and the political wind of the day. (Compared to the cheaper ice rates)
3. There is zero charging infrastructure if you live in the wrong place

I would say the two situations arent remotely comparable unless you live in exactly the right place, Wisconsin has under 3500 plug in vehicles out of 6.5 million ICE and I can understand why
Last edited by rmay635703 on Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

SageBrush
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:29 am

rmay635703 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:40 am
Our state
Do not conflate *your* state with the rest of the world outside Europe
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rmay635703
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:02 am

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:29 am
rmay635703 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:40 am
Our state
Do not conflate *your* state with the rest of the world outside Europe
My state Policy wise is similar to 20 other ones And 45 of the 50 states have fewer than 10000 plug ins (PHEV+Bev) on the road.

If I got a State subsidy Or even charging infrastructure and then had to pay it back in registration taxes I could somewhat understand but in most areas of the US this isn’t how it works especially on a used vehicle.

You must live in the 10% of states that are different I guess you shouldn’t confuse CARB with the rest of the country, just as I shouldn’t confuse Wisconsin with the 5 states following carb like policies.
Last edited by rmay635703 on Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oilpan4
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:24 am

I think plug in hybrids will be looking lasting.
They are perfect for people who only want to have 1 car, would like an electric but an electric would only cover 90% of their needs.

If I still lived in maine I wouldn't have a leaf. The long winters would kill too much range for too much of the year, needing to run the defrost most of the year would eat up too much range.
It would be plug in hybrid for me for sure.

No one gives a damn about what Europe is doing. For thousands of years they killed each other for sport and they're supposed to be the authority on whatever is declared righteous. Ha!
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SageBrush
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:59 pm

rmay635703 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:02 am
My state Policy wise
That may be true -- I have not checked. But this is all about the AMOUNT of the extra fees. I'll take your word for it that your state has high fees. How many states are at your state fee amount of higher, and do not have offsetting tax credits or other perks ?

I get that you want to complain about your state
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:56 am

jlsoaz wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:20 pm
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 pm
jlsoaz wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:16 pm
As the batteries get bigger, it is logical in some of them to ask about whether they would come with DCFC.
Off the top of my head, the only two PHEVs shipping in the US that come with DC FC inlet are the i3 REx and the Outlander PHEV. JDM Prius Prime has CHAdeMO but not the US version.
ok, cool. At a quick look around, the Karma Revero also seems to have DCQC (I am just going by wikipedia, it seems hard to get the info on their page). I suppose there could be others, but the point is that as it becomes easier to include a decent-sized battery with a PHEV, perhaps DCQC will become more the norm, for some of them, especially if they are skewed toward BEV such as in the i3 REx.
cwerdna wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 pm

And, Mitsubishi in markets like Japan had been pushing Outlander PHEV as part of a V2H solution (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=29000&p=571131&hilit=dendo#p571131).
interesting, I wonder how that will work out.
FWIW, I came across a LinkedIn post by Toyota at https://www.linkedin.com/posts/toyota_t ... 29280-2rQQ that points to https://www.toyota-global.com/innovatio ... 13_01.html. It looks like they were doing some experiment involving V2G/V2H with Prius Primes, in Japan, of course.

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GRA
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:09 pm

GCC:
T&E study finds plug-in hybrids show higher CO2 emissions than claimed
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/1 ... 24-te.html

Three of the most popular plug-in hybrids in 2020 all emitted more CO2 than advertised when tested in the real world, according to tests commissioned by European environmental NGO Transport & Environment (T&E). T&E said governments should therefore end the purchase subsidies and tax breaks for plug-in hybrids.

T&E has commissioned Emissions Analytics to test three of the most popular PHEVs sold in 2019: a BMW X5 (longest EV range PHEV available), a Volvo XC60 and the Mitsubishi Outlander. Among the findings:

The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than claimed when tested by Emissions Analytics on a fully charged battery in optimal conditions.

On an empty battery, they emitted three to eight times more than official values.

When driven in battery-charging mode, which could become more common as motorists charge up ahead of using electric mode in low-emissions zones, the PHEVs emitted three to 12 times more. . . .

Rather than eliminating subsidies, I think they should either reduce them or make the tests reflect values closer to the real world. And if anyone's actually cheating, nail them ala' VW.
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jlsoaz
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:47 pm

I'm really frustrated that, year after year and decade after decade, we continue to hear virtually nothing about any possibility of a widely-available zero-carbon drop-in replacement for gasoline and for diesel. Sure, it would have helped if there had been higher carbon taxes on fuel here in the US, but how about somewhere in the world? And when?

Such a fuel would have changed the conversation around PHEVs. It might not have been enough to make PHEVs a winning proposition in a big way in a carbon-cleaned-up world of the future, and PHEVs still would have had all their disadvantages including their Rube Goldberg Device nature (by comparison to BEV) but it might have helped make them more competitive in the discussion, and it would help to make them more relevant for a longer period of time in fleets around the world.
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GRA
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:52 pm

I've been discussing PHFCEVs for quite a while now. Of course, zero-carbon bio- or synthetic liquid fuels would be the simplest option, but so far, although research continues, no one has been able to figure out how to produce then in the necessary quantities (if we also want to do frivolous things like eat), even assuming the price is affordable.

Apropos of H2, fortuitously this appeared on GCC today - like all lab results, the odds are against it ever being commercialized:
Researchers create hydrogen-producing living droplets
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/1 ... 26-xu.html

Researchers at the University of Bristol in the UK and Harbin Institute of Technology in China have built tiny droplet-based algal factories that produce hydrogen, instead of oxygen, when exposed to daylight in air. An open-access paper on their work is published in Nature Communications. . . .

There are often similar articles on liquid bio- and synthetic fuel developments in labs, with the same chances of commercialization.
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The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:36 pm

There was an announcement, a few years ago, about algae that can produce a gasoline analog from biological waste.
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