cwerdna
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Don't forget bans in ICEs in a lot of European city centers. This along accounts for many/most of the short-AER PHEVs.
Yep. (Some?) PHEVs were exempt from London's congestion charge, but https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet- ... -from-2021 states that it's going away Oct 2021.

On the note of the Volt, the US Federal tax credit was structured based upon how many kWh of battery capacity the car had, not AER. So, the Volt had just enough/not much more than what was needed to get the full $7500.

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smkettner
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:06 pm

The problem with PHEVs would be getting people to consistently plug them in.
I am sure many do.... I also believe many do not.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:29 pm

smkettner wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:06 pm
The problem with PHEVs would be getting people to consistently plug them in.
I am sure many do.... I also believe many do not.
The luxury brands will likely equip future PHEVs with wireless or automated charging. The cheaper PHEVs will get plugged in religiously when gas prices go up a lot.
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GRA
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:25 pm

I don't think we'll need two or three more waves of ICE PHEVs, just one or at the outside two, provided that public charging infrastructure is massively increased to service an all or mostly BEV fleet. But that requires public charging to be profitable while being cheaper than gas, and at the moment that isn't the case here.

Personally, I'm in no doubt that reducing GHGs and other emissions in routine daily driving ASAP is the best route to buying us the time needed to boost BEV/PHFCEV capability/reduce prices/build infrastructure. California has already instituted a minimum (35 mile UDDS, which is about 25 miles EPA combined) AER requirement for PHEVs to qualify for rebates and/or HOV stickers, forget which. That can be boosted as needed as time goes on and battery prices drop, although we don't want to boost the requirement beyond a range that covers the routine daily driving range of say 80% of U.S. drivers, or that can't be charged in 8 hours or less of L1. We need to keep prices and charging infrastructure requirements to a minimum so a much greater percentage of buyers can afford these cars and, especially for renters, be able to charge them. They can't afford and often have no practical way to charge long-range BEVs, for the next several years at least.

We'll either have to raise gas taxes considerably, as is the case in Europe, or provide other incentives. I favor ULEV and ultimately ZEV-only zones in cities, with some way (transponders) of allowing PHEVs to be used in them when running solely on the battery. Reduced tolls are another method. Of course, should they ever be politically possible here, carbon taxes on fuels and vehicles are the simplest route.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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jlsoaz
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:40 pm

smkettner wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:06 pm
The problem with PHEVs would be getting people to consistently plug them in.
I am sure many do.... I also believe many do not.
Agree. Example: denizens of attached dwellings that have to deal with unavailability of charging at their parking spot. I"m sure this is being addressed by some policymakers in some countries and regions, but I'm thinking the issue is not put to bed yet.
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salyavin
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:44 pm

If there are enough of a demand it is possible they might even choose to install l2 charging at some spots as an offering albeit for a fee which is fair. Even a person renting a house may be stuck with l1 charging. I agree this is a significant issue.

SageBrush
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:46 am

In Europe a PHEV is cheaper than the twin ICE after subsidies. It is not hard to see that people will buy the PHEV to save money at purchase, regardless of whether they ever plan to plug in the car.

This was also true when I purchased a Prius Prime in Colorado. I received ~ $10k between federal and state subsidies, making the car much cheaper than a standard Prius. In my case I plugged it in religiously before every drive but I know very well that I am not a typical car owner. And after we bought a Tesla, one of my reasons to keep the LEAF rather than the Prime was so that my wife would not be tempted to rely on fossil fuel instead of continuing the plug-in habit.
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11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:49 pm

Sage,

Do you find you use the QC on the 2013 very often? We didn't get it on our 2013, and I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 times in 6 years that it would have made a difference in our traveling solution.
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SageBrush
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:36 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:49 pm
Sage,
Do you find you use the QC on the 2013 very often?
No. Total use is less than 5 times over 3.5 years, and I don't recall any of them being important.

But the # does not really tell the tale.
We have relegated the car to local errands, in part because CHAdeMO is uncommon and/or unreliable where we drive, in part because the car range is 60 miles, and in part because we own a Tesla.

If CHAdeMO was widespread and reliable it would certainly be a nice security blanket that could lead to more "adventurous" use, though probably not in our family for the other reasons mentioned. In fact, I remember thinking a couple of years ago that if only there was CHAdeMO downtown we would use the LEAF, but EA came to town and other than a one time use to try out the location (and the plug got stuck -- my wife was not impressed) we have not been back. The Tesla is just too easy an alternative, not to mention a much nicer car to drive.

So would I pay for a CHAdeMO port in retrospect ? Absolutely. A big part of our car ownership is confidence in not getting stuck on the side of the road. In that way, CHAdeMO has value. It just isn't good enough to be part of an anticipated, routine use.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
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Re: Are PHEVs a transitional technology? Or a long lasting use case?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:21 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:46 am
In Europe a PHEV is cheaper than the twin ICE after subsidies. It is not hard to see that people will buy the PHEV to save money at purchase, regardless of whether they ever plan to plug in the car.

This was also true when I purchased a Prius Prime in Colorado. I received ~ $10k between federal and state subsidies, making the car much cheaper than a standard Prius. In my case I plugged it in religiously before every drive but I know very well that I am not a typical car owner. And after we bought a Tesla, one of my reasons to keep the LEAF rather than the Prime was so that my wife would not be tempted to rely on fossil fuel instead of continuing the plug-in habit.

The above is one of the reasons I'm not in favor of large subsidies for PHEVs. We want them to cost enough extra vs. ICEs that the relatively small
% of car buyers who think about TCO won't be able to conclude that they can come out ahead just because of the subsidies.

I'm also against HOV lane access without some way to ensure that the cars are running on the battery (I'm against HOV access period unless there's enough people in the car to qualify, but that's not how it works here). We know that a fair number of people in CA bought PiPs for that access and rarely if ever plugged them in. Requiring a certain minimum AER helps to avoid that, but isn't enough by itself. Volts bought as company cars were often not plugged in, because the drivers were reimbursed for gas but not electricity (at home). There are some work-arounds for that, although they tend to be awkward.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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