kubel
Posts: 1609
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Leaf Number: 19628
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:16 am

smkettner wrote:
AndyH wrote:
The federal government is the largest owner of electricity generating capacity and owns significant transmission assets in the United States.
http://www.gao.gov/key_issues/federal_o ... ue_summary
This is one area where I think a federal acquisition or take over would be good for the economy.
:lol:
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
20% degradation in 42k miles
Leased 5-17-2012, Returned 1-15-2016


2017 Chevy Volt LT
Siren Red Tintcoat
Leased 10-21-2016

WetEV
Posts: 3205
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:15 am

klapauzius wrote:I am not aware that utilities can store excess power, unless they have a big water reservoir somewhere that they can pump up. Not sure though if that maybe is the norm for US utilities?
Hydro pumped storage locations are fairly expensive, and suitable sites are rare (and disputed) high mountain valleys. There is one above Georgetown Colorado, the Cabin Creek project. 39.661924,-105.706161

Yes, not the norm. But if solar was very cheap, and enough solar was installed to equal more than 100% of the daytime load, then the daytime wholesale price of electricity would fall to zero or below. The nighttime wholesale power rate would be determined by the cost of stored power. Hard to see how a utility can stay solvent buying power at retail and selling it at zero or less.

Net metering is doomed.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:45 pm

WetEV wrote:Yes, not the norm. But if solar was very cheap, and enough solar was installed to equal more than 100% of the daytime load, then the daytime wholesale price of electricity would fall to zero or below. The nighttime wholesale power rate would be determined by the cost of stored power. Hard to see how a utility can stay solvent buying power at retail and selling it at zero or less.

Net metering is doomed.
As long as you keep crafting bogus comparisons while missing the other 98% of the factbase, the only thing doomed is your understanding. ;)

This thread already contains details of a number plans that solve the problem differently - yet all provide the same 100% renewable result save one - Reinventing Fire, as they retain ~25% of today's natural gas use.

Only an idiot would build a national grid with 100% solar and nothing else. Nobody is suggesting that or recommending that - except for our resident nuke shill. In the real world, we have wind, solar thermal, PV, wave/tidal, pumped hydro, hydrogen, CSP/molten salt, big-honkin' batteries, wood/biomass, biomethane...and the list goes on.

Check this out for a bit of closed-loop thinking. Grow a local crop, make biogas, use effluent from digester to feed/water the crop.

"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

WetEV wrote: Yes, not the norm. But if solar was very cheap, and enough solar was installed to equal more than 100% of the daytime load, then the daytime wholesale price of electricity would fall to zero or below. The nighttime wholesale power rate would be determined by the cost of stored power. Hard to see how a utility can stay solvent buying power at retail and selling it at zero or less.
Net metering is doomed.
I think they get close to that situation in Germany during summer but not quite there yet.
But yes, if there is no storage available, net-metering in the sense that you use the utility as "virtual" storage device (which is our current deal, but at the same time, at very cheap rates...so the few kWhs the utilities "stores" are worth pennies, literally).

But it will be a long way to reach 100% day time generation and when we reach that goal, energy storage technology will hopefully have caught up.

I cannot possibly see 100% net generation for the average homeowner in the PNW at current efficiencies and panel prices, so this problem is not imminent here. Particularly through the winter, there is no way you could ever reach 100% with solar.

The Southwest might be a different situation, so I am curious if that are actually the places where net-metering is put in question?

smkettner
Posts: 7379
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:02 pm

kubel wrote:
smkettner wrote:
This is one area where I think a federal acquisition or take over would be good for the economy.
:lol:
OK, what is your electric rate and are you investor owned or municipal owned?
Government owned seems to be generally lower electric rates as far as I can tell.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:34 pm

smkettner wrote:
AndyH wrote:
The federal government is the largest owner of electricity generating capacity and owns significant transmission assets in the United States.
http://www.gao.gov/key_issues/federal_o ... ue_summary
This is one area where I think a federal acquisition or take over would be good for the economy.
I agree with you. On a small scale, San Antonio's been my first experience with municipally owned utilities (we own electricity, gas, and water) and prices are lower here than anywhere else in the state, and we can actually attend meetings and not only be heard but actually help steer the ship.

I'd like to see the power grid, gas, oil, and water be nationalized at this point. For profit business is proving to be incapable of managing these tasks.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:46 pm

klapauzius wrote:I think they get close to that situation in Germany during summer but not quite there yet.
But yes, if there is no storage available, net-metering in the sense that you use the utility as "virtual" storage device (which is our current deal, but at the same time, at very cheap rates...so the few kWhs the utilities "stores" are worth pennies, literally).

But it will be a long way to reach 100% day time generation and when we reach that goal, energy storage technology will hopefully have caught up.

I cannot possibly see 100% net generation for the average homeowner in the PNW at current efficiencies and panel prices, so this problem is not imminent here. Particularly through the winter, there is no way you could ever reach 100% with solar.

The Southwest might be a different situation, so I am curious if that are actually the places where net-metering is put in question?
Why just PV, Klap? Solar is more than just PV. The problem with 'the average homeowner' isn't solar efficiency - it's that they live in an inefficient house and waste too much energy. Fix the efficiency problem and generation becomes almost trivial.

As for Germany, they seem to have two different pushes happening. The energy transition is bottom-up. It's building efficiency (the spread of PassivHaus primarily) but it's also generation efficiency - district hot water, farmers generating biomathane for heat, hot water, and electricity, plus PV plus wind. In areas taking a holistic approach, they are providing 100% of their electricity, heat, and hot water from renewable sources and exporting electricity to the rest of the country. The Third industrial revoltuion plan is more top-down. It's also a holistic view - wind, solar, biogas, electric vehicles, fuel cell vehicles, and hydrogen production. Hydrogen stores wind and solar, feeds into the natural gas system to reduce fossil carbon use, and feeds transportation. The storage problem is solved!
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:25 pm

AndyH wrote: Why just PV, Klap? Solar is more than just PV. The problem with 'the average homeowner' isn't solar efficiency - it's that they live in an inefficient house and waste too much energy. Fix the efficiency problem and generation becomes almost trivial.
Only PV, because the issue at hand, i.e. what happens to net-metering, at the moment is acute for private PV home owners. Wind is typically in a more commercial setting?

Anyway, while net-metering might not play a big role in Seattle, because electricity prices are dirt cheap here, it is a substantial incentive in other places to go solar (PV that is), so its fate is really important.

Believe me, I have made my house quite efficient, but in Seattle, I would need triple the solar production capacity I currently have to generate a net zero electricity consumption. The LEAF doubled our consumption, before we were at least 66% self sufficient (net over the year).

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:39 am

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote: Why just PV, Klap? Solar is more than just PV. The problem with 'the average homeowner' isn't solar efficiency - it's that they live in an inefficient house and waste too much energy. Fix the efficiency problem and generation becomes almost trivial.
Only PV, because the issue at hand, i.e. what happens to net-metering, at the moment is acute for private PV home owners. Wind is typically in a more commercial setting?

Anyway, while net-metering might not play a big role in Seattle, because electricity prices are dirt cheap here, it is a substantial incentive in other places to go solar (PV that is), so its fate is really important.

Believe me, I have made my house quite efficient, but in Seattle, I would need triple the solar production capacity I currently have to generate a net zero electricity consumption. The LEAF doubled our consumption, before we were at least 66% self sufficient (net over the year).
This thread is not about PV alone - it's about solutions across the entire energy spectrum.

You're educated enough to realize that 'quite efficient' is meaningless without a reference or standard with which to compare it. Here's the scale - are you as efficient as a typical German in 1990?

Image
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: World Energy Use - There's No Tomorrow - Let's Fix This!

Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:37 am

Yes, for heating/warm water which is by far the biggest portion of our energy consumption, we are at about 80 kWh per sq m per year.
And that is with basically a 20 year old gas furnace and a tankless heater.

The dilemma is this:
New windows and a hybrid heatpump/gas heating system would probably cut the energy use down by 50%, to the tune of (hold your breath) ~400$ savings annually.
The cost to implement these savings is ~ $ 20000-25000.

The good new is:
Without spending a lot of money you can get pretty efficient already.

I suspect in colder parts of the US the cost/benefit ratio will much better, especially when you factor in incentives as well.
Last edited by klapauzius on Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “Business / Economy and Politics”