contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mitch672

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
1,956
Location
Boston, MA
I sent Rich Rudman an email, asking about his plans for the Leaf, I am enclosing the email and his response as well, from the sound of it, we will need a west coast volunteer to assist with development, as he won't be buying a Leaf right away.

> Mr. Rudman,
>
> I have discovered your website, and the various DC chargers you have
> available, and I was wondering if you where planning on making or
> adapting one of your models for the upcoming Nissan Leaf. The Leaf is
> only comming with a 3.3KW onboard charger, that is accessed with the
> J-1772 EVSE equipment, that Nissan is trying to sell the Leaf owners
> for $2200 installed. I think a “real” DC charger, such as the PFC-50
> that can put out 12KW if you have 240V AC/50AMPs available is a much
> better value for your $3300 asking price. Of course it will need an
> interface cord/connector for the Leaf, and also probably an interface
> “box” or module to talk between the Leafs onboard BMS and the charger…
> But I think you and your company could come up with that, and it could
> be a great product for you. Nissan already has over 8,000 preorders
> worldwide for the Leaf, and it could be a very large market for you,
> it is certainly a much better value than the overpriced EVSE that
> Nissan is attempting to push out to the public, which will take over 8
> hours to charge the Leafs 24KW battery pack @ 3.3KW.
>
> I thought I would call your attention to this, although I am fairly
> certain you are probably already “on the case”
>
> I look forward to hearing about your plans, and what you might be
> coming out with for the Nissan Leaf.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mitch
>
> Future RED SL Nissan Leaf owner
>
> Boston, MA
>
> P.S. We have a Nissan Leaf forum, some of these issues are being
> discussed on:
> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/search.php?search_id=active_topics
>

Here is his reply

Mitchell:
Yes I am looking at using out chargers for the leaf. At the moment I was just working on a 40Kw 3 phase fleet level charger, but the PFC50/75 would also be a good fit.

What I need to know is what it takes to use the DC interface feature on the Leaf. I have lots of questions, but I can see a 1000s customer base from here also.

The question is how do I do it, and can I keep it cheap, and my profit high.

Any information on the DC interface would be nice to see.

Please tell the forum that we intend to make as much gear as we can for the Leaf, Bigger chargers bigger battery packs, CAN scanners for viewing what ever is needed in the Leaf.
I was thinking it would be a good idea for Manzanita Micro to get a Leaf, but I over loaded on the Hybrids that I am still paying off.

Let me know what you folks want, I will make it if I can.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
 
I'll tell him Karen :) He may not be aware of it yet, I think he really wants the technical specs on the Leaf and the DC port, but as of now, I don't think anyone can get that without an NDA, but he could probably contact Nissan and get that ahead of time, depending on how they feel about 3rd party add ons.
 
P1020806.jpg


Here's the same connector on the MiEV:

imievleft.jpg


I believe the connector in the TEPCO standard is called "JARI"
 
There are the following:

Two com pins
Two EV relay controls
One ground reference pin
Once proximity Pin for mating
Once "ready to charge pin

Standard EV stuff, if a CAN bus is used to talk to the large charger then doing a PFC will be more challenging as only chargers like the Brusa have a CAN bus. This is what Gary was mentioning earlier. The car BMS may need to talk over the CAN to control the charger, something the PFC does not do last I knew. Depending on the parameters though, something could be made.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/IEEE_SAE_J1772_Update_10_02_08_Gery_Kissel.pdf
 
Yes, I found a little more, the cars ECU does tell the charger what the current should be set to, so it will need to support the CAN bus most likely.

TEPCO Level III Specs

•Switching type, constant current power supply
•Input: 3-phase 200V (200~430V)
•Output power: 50 kW (10~100kW)
•Max DC output Voltage: 500V
•Output current: 125A (20~200A)
•JARI Level 3 DC Connector
•EV ECU determines optimal current; charger supplies current based on order from EV ECU
 
They would need to modify pfc-50 to add the communication features.

Ofcource, then the question is, would it be as per code & pass the UL. Those things add to the cost ...
 
mitch672 said:
Yes, I found a little more, the cars ECU does tell the charger what the current should be set to, so it will need to support the CAN bus most likely.

TEPCO Level III Specs

•Switching type, constant current power supply
•Input: 3-phase 200V (200~430V)
•Output power: 50 kW (10~100kW)
•Max DC output Voltage: 500V
•Output current: 125A (20~200A)
•JARI Level 3 DC Connector
•EV ECU determines optimal current; charger supplies current based on order from EV ECU


Where did you find specs on the Leaf ECU? The specs on the connector are generic. If it does need CAN it could be made to control the PFC current like the Rudman Regs, etc.
 
There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete.

I think that most Leaf owners will stay in their 'commercial charge point' comfort zone. For the smaller market segment of folks that are comfortable making their own cables, they're likely to also be price conscious. I suspect the Chinese charger industry will capture more of the market. Time will tell.

Andy
 
AndyH said:
There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete.

I think that most Leaf owners will stay in their 'commercial charge point' comfort zone. For the smaller market segment of folks that are comfortable making their own cables, they're likely to also be price conscious. I suspect the Chinese charger industry will capture more of the market. Time will tell.

Andy


Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.

I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy
 
AndyH said:
EVDRIVER said:
Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.

I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy


Can you please list the maker of this charger and the specs, thanks. Canadian charger perhaps?
 
EVdriver> about your chinese junk claim. Well the true situation is that while PiPrius PHEV conversions kits flopped (made by Manzanita Micro), no longer listed on their website, and in Rudman's own words he is still paying the bills for experiments/products in this area (did they ever sold any beyond known test vehicle upgrades?). In contrast, the chinese PHEV kits lead the market with more than hundred units sold, int. dealership growing as we speak, yes with some failed units in the early revisions. One can argue it was only because of the price for the U.S. made product, but that's not the entire story. One the other hand Manzanita chargers are not isolated, and usually recommended for serious diyes only, hot rodders who know what they are doing. That being said, Rich Rudman is perfectly positioned to offer 3rd party products for Leaf, Volt etc. in the future, but as you heard in the email we are not there yet.

In any case the idea of fast charging passive air cooled only batt. pack like Leaf's in combination with 3rd party supplied charging hardware sounds as quite risky proposition to me, perhaps after few years and demonstrated safety record by dozens of users this could be for larger public debate/consumption..
 
EVDRIVER said:
Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters.

What is the reason ?

China, just like other countries, can produce junk as well as good products. Depends on price. For a given price their products are hardly junk compared to products sourced from other countries.

Since almost every OECD manufacturer gets their stuff made in China, China now has very high level of expertise building all kinds of products of all kinds of quality. It is naive to paint all Chinese made products with the same brush.
 
Even with an external charger supplying the DC power to charge the Leaf's battery pack, it seems clear that the Leaf's internal "Charge Controller" will be regulating the charge, using feedback from the on-board Battery Monitoring System.

As long as the external charger follows the Leaf's commands to control and stop the current flow, there should not be too much danger to the car itself.

Of course, if this external "Charge-Supply" does not respond properly, tries to put in too much current, fails in some way, or tries to take current out of the battery "without permission", the car will (most likely) object and protect itself.
 
It is possible that using non-blessed (UL, L3) chargers with the Leaf could make battery-warranty claims harder to win. But, such use (any misuse, even from "approved", and any public chargers) is difficult to prove.

Hopefully the Leaf will do a good job of "protecting" its battery from damage, during hard driving, during regen, when near "empty" and near "full", and during all types and phases of charging.
 
EVDRIVER said:
AndyH said:
EVDRIVER said:
Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.

I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy


Can you please list the maker of this charger and the specs, thanks. Canadian charger perhaps?



I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute. Andy implies a CAN based high power charger exists as stated above and I have yet to see such a charger and it would be great if he would post the price, model, specs and where to purchase such a quality product. Andy, would you be kind enough to do so as I would like to order one for a project since I don't intend to purchase any more Brusa products and I would like to avoid making interfaces for my PFC-50 projects.

Something is telling me "the" charger mentioned is not high power and can't match the specs of a PFC-50 at 12kw @ $3300 or the very high price of actually over $17K for a 12kw Brusa with CAN and isolation. Sure, I can source a low-power isolated charger with CAN but what good is that since the point was quick charging all along?

Yes, there are decent electronics products from China but I have yet to see a quality EV charger with high power. Anyone, please correct me on this one. Also, chargers like the BRUSA are sophisticated products with control software and multiple layers of software profiles that suit charging more complex chemistries, these are not easy to copy:) The Brusa could likely exceed the charging needs of the Leaf system in ALL technical respects if you have a pile of cash to burn for four of them, not to mention they would be quite large stacked up. Like most OEM quality EV components worth having, they are extremely costly.
 
Back
Top