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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:56 am
by garygid
It woul be nice to have a list of the commands used for L3 charging.

For example, is there a command to:
1. Set charger output current at NNN amps.
2. What is the max current (and/or voltage) available?
3. Can you ventilate?

The Japanese (Telco?) version of L3 operating in public in Tokyo right now would be a great start.

Anybody have that info, or a link to it?

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 12:49 pm
by Mesuge
EVDRIVER wrote: I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute.
Again, sorry you seem not able to grasp the subject matter here, the point is not mute. The Manzanita PiPrius charger was doubling in the function of high power DC/DC converter, not only as charger, that's the significance, so it was recharging the oem pack, hence driving the car. The chinese solution to cheap PHEV kits is similar, but having two separate units for these functions, which is not as "hightech" as the combo from Manzanita, but it means fraction of the cost. The problem with low volume production "boutique" companies in the west (U.S.) is their products tend to remain quite pricey even if the production scales up to say 100/1000 volume produced. Oftentimes "massproduction" means also completely different design from the get-go.

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:12 pm
by EVDRIVER
Mesuge wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote: I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute.
Again, sorry you seem not able to grasp the subject matter here, the point is not mute. The Manzanita PiPrius charger was doubling in the function of high power DC/DC converter, not only as charger, that's the significance, so it was recharging the oem pack, hence driving the car. The chinese solution to cheap PHEV kits is similar, but having two separate units for these functions, which is not as "hightech" as the combo from Manzanita, but it means fraction of the cost. The problem with low volume production "boutique" companies in the west (U.S.) is their products tend to remain quite pricey even if the production scales up to say 100/1000 volume produced. Oftentimes "massproduction" means also completely different design from the get-go.

Not really, since the original subject has nothing to do with applications other than a portable fast charger for the Leaf. I'm not interested in the other applications of these products as that is not the point of this thread. Secondly it has been implied there are high-power CAN based chargers(Chinese or otherwise) that are affordable that can be used in place of the PFC-50 with adaptation or in place of a bunch of Brusas.

So will someone please list these chargers? If not I stick to my original point that for portable fast charging for the LEAF, there is one affordable option which is a PFC-50 with potential modifications to work on the Level 3 charge port. I do not believe there is another affordable option (high power + CAN) to be used for this application. Since Andy is not listing "his" charger and there are no other suggestions at this point I see one potential option and one solid but VERY expensive one. I have installed several of both of these chargers on nickel metal, flooded Nicad, and lead and would really like to know any other potential options.

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:24 pm
by AndyH
EVDRIVER wrote:I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute. Andy implies a CAN based high power charger exists as stated above and I have yet to see such a charger and it would be great if he would post the price, model, specs and where to purchase such a quality product. Andy, would you be kind enough to do so as I would like to order one for a project since I don't intend to purchase any more Brusa products and I would like to avoid making interfaces for my PFC-50 projects.

Something is telling me "the" charger mentioned is not high power and can't match the specs of a PFC-50 at 12kw @ $3300 or the very high price of actually over $17K for a 12kw Brusa with CAN and isolation. Sure, I can source a low-power isolated charger with CAN but what good is that since the point was quick charging all along?

Yes, there are decent electronics products from China but I have yet to see a quality EV charger with high power. Anyone, please correct me on this one. Also, chargers like the BRUSA are sophisticated products with control software and multiple layers of software profiles that suit charging more complex chemistries, these are not easy to copy:) The Brusa could likely exceed the charging needs of the Leaf system in ALL technical respects if you have a pile of cash to burn for four of them, not to mention they would be quite large stacked up. Like most OEM quality EV components worth having, they are extremely costly.
Hang on 'EVDRIVER' - I'm not your tech support staff. If you can't do your own research, or hire someone that will, why should anyone on this forum do it for you?

If I'm going to do your work for you, what's my cut? :roll: :lol:

Check with Nancy at Hangzhou Tiecheng. They make chargers from 1500W up thru 400KW. Unlike the green boxes, these are isolated, have input protection, automatic brownout shutdown/restart, and can be connected to the pack and AC supply in any order without destroying the charger. They're weatherproof to IP65 and built for J1378 vibration/shock resistance. Input auto ranges from 85VAC thru 265VAC. In single quantities, their 8KW unit is $1820; add $73 for the CAN module. They use their chargers as building blocks for their high-power cabinets so they can be racked/stacked as needed. The company will configure the CAN to order. That's 12KW plus CAN for less than $3800.

Andy

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:31 pm
by garygid
When the PFC-50 gets L3 CAN, only THEN it might be useful, right?

Is UL listing, and a L3/EV charger-equipment "listing" required to be legal?

Is an "isolated" output required for any of these listings (I suspect not)?

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 1:39 pm
by AndyH
What makes anyone think that level 3 will use CAN?

Isolation? Somewhat critical if one is going to put chargers in series or parallel. Also nice to add another layer of safety - frying one's kids if they touch the EV during charging is seen as a negative in most cultures.

Approvals? I know from experience that an entry in a database won't protect an electronic device or it's owner. But the lack of a small label or a database entry can be a convenient way for an insurance inspector to deny payment after the garage burns.

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:00 pm
by garygid
Teasing: I thought the L3 CAN came from some "andy" guy!

I hope the L3 car-to-charger interface is a lot simpler than CAN, and more robust for this "exterior" use.

Is the L3 standard being made without inviting comment on the proposal from the "public"?

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:06 pm
by EVDRIVER
AndyH wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute. Andy implies a CAN based high power charger exists as stated above and I have yet to see such a charger and it would be great if he would post the price, model, specs and where to purchase such a quality product. Andy, would you be kind enough to do so as I would like to order one for a project since I don't intend to purchase any more Brusa products and I would like to avoid making interfaces for my PFC-50 projects.

Something is telling me "the" charger mentioned is not high power and can't match the specs of a PFC-50 at 12kw @ $3300 or the very high price of actually over $17K for a 12kw Brusa with CAN and isolation. Sure, I can source a low-power isolated charger with CAN but what good is that since the point was quick charging all along?

Yes, there are decent electronics products from China but I have yet to see a quality EV charger with high power. Anyone, please correct me on this one. Also, chargers like the BRUSA are sophisticated products with control software and multiple layers of software profiles that suit charging more complex chemistries, these are not easy to copy:) The Brusa could likely exceed the charging needs of the Leaf system in ALL technical respects if you have a pile of cash to burn for four of them, not to mention they would be quite large stacked up. Like most OEM quality EV components worth having, they are extremely costly.
Hang on 'EVDRIVER' - I'm not your tech support staff. If you can't do your own research, or hire someone that will, why should anyone on this forum do it for you?

If I'm going to do your work for you, what's my cut? :roll: :lol:

Check with Nancy at Hangzhou Tiecheng. They make chargers from 1500W up thru 400KW. Unlike the green boxes, these are isolated, have input protection, automatic brownout shutdown/restart, and can be connected to the pack and AC supply in any order without destroying the charger. They're weatherproof to IP65 and built for J1378 vibration/shock resistance. Input auto ranges from 85VAC thru 265VAC. In single quantities, their 8KW unit is $1820; add $73 for the CAN module. They use their chargers as building blocks for their high-power cabinets so they can be racked/stacked as needed. The company will configure the CAN to order. That's 12KW plus CAN for less than $3800.

Andy
Thanks, a man who backs up his words! Sounds good for a home based solution if they are reliable but as a portable solution they are bulky and seem quite heavy (2 needed @ 80lbs?) to reach 12kw. I also wonder what the support and service is like and how long to get repairs, etc.

CAN may not be a requirement of Level III but there will need to be some control prior to the BMS so if it is somewhat basic a PFC-50 may work and is quite compact and a great value at $3300 and would have good resale. Isolation is not an issue for me but certainly nice to have.

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:38 pm
by AndyH
I have one of the 1500W chargers that I use on my lithium-filled motorcycle. The charger is designed to bolt to a vehicle frame and be outside in the elements, so there's a large heat sink in place of air vents and fans. I pulled it apart first thing and I was very happy with fit/finish, board design and quality, soldering, parts, etc. It's a rugged little PFC charger. Service before and during the sale was excellent and I'm still in touch with the company. There is a US dealer that can program and repair the units if necessary.

For a really cost effective charger, one could get 20 or 30 or even 50 Meanwell chargers for $20 to $50 each and put them in series/parallel.

There will be plenty of ways to get where we want to go...but we'll need to have the Level 3 standard ratified first then get the gory details.

Andy

Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:55 am
by EVDRIVER
AndyH wrote:I have one of the 1500W chargers that I use on my lithium-filled motorcycle. The charger is designed to bolt to a vehicle frame and be outside in the elements, so there's a large heat sink in place of air vents and fans. I pulled it apart first thing and I was very happy with fit/finish, board design and quality, soldering, parts, etc. It's a rugged little PFC charger. Service before and during the sale was excellent and I'm still in touch with the company. There is a US dealer that can program and repair the units if necessary.

For a really cost effective charger, one could get 20 or 30 or even 50 Meanwell chargers for $20 to $50 each and put them in series/parallel.

There will be plenty of ways to get where we want to go...but we'll need to have the Level 3 standard ratified first then get the gory details.

Andy

Or some large diodes and jumper cables connected directly to the panel.