GPowers
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:05 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 7922
Location: West Coast, USA

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:53 pm

plus on on the square watermelons.
Leaf Num: 7922, Silver, SL w/440 quick charge, Yuckey light cloth interior (now a nice leather), Delivered on 8/26/11

DoxyLover
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:52 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 9214
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:23 pm

mwalsh wrote:
DarkStar wrote:+1 for square watermelons. They fit much better in the refrigerator!
Plus they don't roll away from you when you loose your grip on them! :)
If you drop it far enough, the round one won't roll away either! :mrgreen:
2011 Brilliant Silver Leaf SL
Reserved, quoted and ordered July 11, 2011
Delivered October 16, 2011 (Na. Plug-In Day)

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TimeHorse
Gold Member
Posts: 999
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 4:40 am
Delivery Date: 02 Nov 2011

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:10 am

kmp647 wrote:So you had a cs100 in a year early but can't use it?

Whats up with that?

Forget about the night time rate , hook that thing back up!
I got to use if for 2 weeks but now I'm waiting for the inspector so that Dominion can do their job. Can't be too soon! But I'm still really desperate for that 6.6kW!
RIP CO2 Fre, 27 months, 42,282 mi & 11 bars.
unAmerican Job & Nissan's Rapid Depreciation cost $20,000!
5 hours on the road daily w/o Charge at Work on 100%.

Long Live CO2 Fre, Maxed 2013 SL, 20,000 mi/yr lease.
http://aecn.timehorse.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rmay635703
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:02 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:
Ingineer wrote:My take is that the 6.6kW upgrade would be tricky. First off, it would require 2 beefier wiring harnesses, both running the length of the car; one from the J1772 inlet to the charger (EMI filter) and one from the charger to the HV junction box. The reason is the size of these wires appears to too small to support anything larger. It might also require an upgrade to the J1772 inlet itself.

It would also require draining the cooling system and crawling under the car to disconnect the lines.

-Phil
I think that’s why Nissan doesn’t want to talk about a 6.6kW upgrade. It is too integrated into the design to do profitably. Throw this thing away and buy a new one. New harness, new EMI Filter, change software, teach it how to read the pilot signal.

And dealer Labor for doing all this. You'd faint when they show you the quote.

Huge mistake not to go 6.6kW fromt he start.
Actually you might not need to change anything (besides a thermostat or two) about the wiring harness to get up to 6.6k. Read on if you want to know why...

Anyway despite the above, This still Sounds to me like a classic case of penny wise but pound foolish, to have the car 6.6k ready by ac house wiring standards would have cost maybe $10 in electric wires (likely a lot lot less in reality since really only 4 of the wires needed to be a slight bit beefier) but all is not lost...

Generally for chassis wiring 10 guage would have gotten you the 33amps continous needed to run 6.6kw albeat with a bit of efficiency loss so long as ambient temperature is below 135 degrees and the charger can handle a bit of voltage drop. Me, if I were doing a rig of this type I would have used much beefier wires than those considered necessary because they are more efficient and more expandable in the future.

That said
12 guage wire is officially rated at 15amps continous duty by most but not for any official failure reason, 10amp or 15amp ratings associated with 12guage wire have to do with voltage drops over 50' and 100' and not any actual failure risk.

I would recommend reading this.
http://www.stu-offroad.com/electrical/elec1/wire-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are also others on this subject with a simple google search of 12 guage amperage rating

Generally 12 guage wire can easily handle 23amps continous, this means a little south of 5kw with the existing system is just fine and dandy, and the truth is it can conservatively handle loads up to 41amps depending on temp and duration and of coarse the coating on the wires. It is worth noting that alternators on many cars rated at a little more than 60amps many times only have 12 guage wiring, this is because efficiency is not a concern and the duration at 60amps should not be continous, though it may have to output that rate for hours at a time. The odd part is I have seen a couple hundred amps forced through 12 guage without it blowing up, the risk is fire going way past its rating.

The main issues with this will be interconnects and plugs which are always failure points, the wire itself will likely not fail (even if you were to force enough juice through to burn off the coating).

The cooling system is a non-issue, if the 6.6kw system is efficient and the emphasis stays on efficiency you can make a 6.6kw system that likely dissappates no more heat than the 3.3kw and even if it does make more heat it still doesn't matter because a thermostat could be setup to protect the system such that it will run full blast until its temp raises to certain point then it would slowly derate to prevent overheating.

The same concept would be needed on the wiring, a temperature module near the "J" connector (which should by its own standard require at least 50amp connectors right?) and inside the car near any plug in connectors would be needed.

Because continous is a good long time, I would estimate the wires would not notice 4 hours at a spat and if they did reach max temperature (whatever that is) 3.5 hours in, what would you care if the charger had to derate to 4.5kw?

I would strongly recommend nissan and folks here (who have access to the wiring harnesses) do some failure testing monitoring the temperature of the chassis harness while in a car (to simulate the stuffy environment) to see how hot the harness gets at the 33 or so amps that would be needed for 6.6kw with wire losses and whether or not it fails in any way. Remember that there are many wires rated at 200c or more (sometimes ones that aren't are still made of materials good to that level of abuse) so it is well worth long term testing to see if the wires fail or if there are plug in connectors that would need replacement (much simpler than a whole harness to beef up a connector)

Any takers? I am an engineer and I disagree that a wire guage automatically dissallows a certain use, whether it is safe or not depends on monitoring and the material composition, chassis wiring has much different specs than household wires and despite what some may say here, auto wires should be good up to at least 240 deg F without issues or somebody screwed up royally.

For example, my father has a 6 year old cheap 48v 25amp chinese battery charger in his EV, it has 18 guage (or smaller) wire through out and many very underrated parts, it has been used most every day for years and still works fine (though the fan is getting noisy) It keeps working because once it hits its temperature limit it derates, oddly though it usually doesn't hit that point and has been abused for years with improper ventalation. Internally it does have a wicked voltage drop and is not that efficient but it was cheap.

So please, don't give up hope, I think this problem is being made more complex than it really is and if Nissan is reading this

PLEASE SPEND THE $0.50 and use bigger wires in your harnesses! Don't skimp on a 30k car! Components should be overrated not just meet spec, although I guess you can say you exceeded the chassis requirements but still, why not have the extra efficiency and piece of mind.

Any takers?

mksE55
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:10 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 5086
Location: Tyler TX

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:01 pm

I am in the group that maybe we can have some external charger that uses the QC port for either 6.6 or greater with home wiring even if you dont get the max charge capacity and have to run 440V to your home. Couldnt cost much more than the standard L2 setup since most are going to do this any way and you can bring charge time down to 1-2 hrs.
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

TEG
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:13 pm

I think the next update to the LEAF might have the 6.6kW charger up front so they don't have to run power wiring from the socket on the front of the car all the way to the back like that.

camasleaf
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:44 pm

TEG wrote:I think the next update to the LEAF might have the 6.6kW charger up front so they don't have to run power wiring from the socket on the front of the car all the way to the back like that.
Are those the only wires? Let's move the plug closer to the charger!
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 89000 miles 61%SOH 13.8kWh
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 77888 miles 256mile range
5.7kW DC Solar System

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EVDRIVER
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:46 pm

[quote="

Anyway despite the above, This still Sounds to me like a classic case of penny wise but pound foolish?[/quote]


Yes, 100%. Welcome to the automotive world, if they can save a penny even if it is a huge loss to the customer it will be done. Just look at the carpet in the LEAF, I mean spray on crap. It's about cost cutting not what is logical. Besides wire to the charger there are firmware issues, etc, etc. If Nissan had smart and progressive marketing folks the would have put in a larger charger at a minimal cost and offer dealer "enabled" upgrades. A simple unlock of the firmware would have made customers and dealers ($) very happy. Many cars have features built into the cars that are not enabled. The LEAF was designed by insulated and out of touch marketing folks that likely have never driven an EV. Soon they may offer carpet and paint that is generated by a hologram.

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Ingineer
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Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact: Website

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:25 am

Nissan already went on public record and stated there will be zero chance of upgrading existing LEAFs to a larger capacity charger if/when they offer it. I personally heard it when the Chief Vehicle Engineer and the rest of the Nissan team was in town a few weeks ago.

-Phil
Easily Learn Electricity HERE! - - - - Website: http://evseupgrade.com/[/size] - - - - Like us on Facebook: EVSE Upgrade

Caracalover
Posts: 560
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Delivery Date: 12 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 0567
Location: Tujunga
Contact: Website

Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:05 am

TimeHorse wrote:Well, at this point given my current lack of at-home charging while I wait for My PU to install my new meter, thus being limited to only trickle charge plus the no-rule-against-it-but-don't situation at work I can tell you quite straight between having to wait 3 hours at a Nissan Dealership just for enough charge to get home and having to leave my car at @MOMsOrganicMrkt last night, walk home in the bitter cold carrying my groceries, including a full-sized Watermellon, an hour march to the house, then another hour march today before 6am to pick up my CO2 Fre LEAF all because I lost an hour of charging due to a GFCI fault at the ChargePoint unit meaning there wouldn't be enoug time to fill the pack sufficiently so that the remaining trickle charge at the house would fill the pack to 100% by 5am while still getting a sufficient night's sleep, all I can say is:

My LEAF needs a f#^*% 6.6kW Charger!!!
And a gym membership would cost you how much? Might just be a blessing, count them when you have time - like while waiting for a L1 charge. :lol:

I live on L1, and for me it isn't tough. Seriously sorry to hear about your situation, hope it doesn't last long.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

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