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Ingineer
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Volusiano wrote:To be honest, it wasn't even my idea to begin with. I think it might have been Phil's (Ingineer) idea a while back when he was tossing around the idea of installing a third party 10KW charger in the front under the hood.
Yes, this was my idea, and I've tested and confirmed it will work, however, the trick is finding an existing manufacturer of a 400v ~10kW charger that is isolated, affordable, and of reasonable quality. It will also have to fit, which is a problem with many air-cooled models. Water-cooling is doable, but more messy to install.

I've also verified that it is possible to charge the LEAF while it's in motion without extensive modifications, which opens up range extender possibilities. (both as in my Generator and auxiliary battery packs)

-Phil
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klapauzius
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:20 pm

Strange enough its really hard to find one...I assume the chargers built specifically for the large EV manufacturers will not be available to the public at reasonable prices?
A superficial survey of the EV-DIY world seems to indicate that most people there work with non-isolated topographies... Given that
the overall design of an isolated charger is not that complicated, one could come up with a custom built design, but that would add whole new can of worms in terms of safety etc.

Is the isolation really necessary? And could the Leaf be tricked into seeing the non-isolated unit as an isolated one?

All the difficulties aside, the idea of a portable J1772 to CHademo adapter would seem compelling, especially since some j1772 chargers can support large currents...it would be like a portable L3 quickcharger.

I wouldnt even want to have it permanently installed in the car...something you can drop in the trunk for longer trips would be fine. And 240 V 50 amp outlets these days are certainly easier to find than L3 chargers...

jclemens
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:31 pm

Ingineer wrote: I've also verified that it is possible to charge the LEAF while it's in motion without extensive modifications, which opens up range extender possibilities. (both as in my Generator and auxiliary battery packs)

-Phil
Any chance you can share what these modifications would be?
Interested in a j1772 dummy inlet to hang your EVSE when not charging?
PM me for details. or see http://erroneus.myevblog.com/buy-plastic-parts-here/

Herm
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:08 pm

klapauzius wrote: Is the isolation really necessary? And could the Leaf be tricked into seeing the non-isolated unit as an isolated one?
You could always get a large roll of electrical tape and wrap up the whole charger completely.. then it would be isolated :)

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planet4ever
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:39 pm

Herm wrote:
klapauzius wrote:Is the isolation really necessary? And could the Leaf be tricked into seeing the non-isolated unit as an isolated one?
You could always get a large roll of electrical tape and wrap up the whole charger completely.. then it would be isolated :)
True, but only if you also cut the electrical wires going in and out of it and wrap their ends, too. :lol:

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

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TimeHorse
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:40 pm

klapauzius wrote:All the difficulties aside, the idea of a portable J1772 to CHademo adapter would seem compelling, especially since some j1772 chargers can support large currents...it would be like a portable L3 quickcharger.
I agree but in addition to the Microcode you'd have to write to speak both J1772 and CHAdeMO the rectifying (charging, A/C to D/C) as well as installing a transformer for the voltage difference, you'd also have to licence the TEPCO plug which somewhere else in the forum I've read goes for $2300. Yes, $2300 just for the stinking CHAdeMO protocol TEPCO plug. What the #$^$%^ are they smoking anyway!?

Why must they make this so difficult. Man, not a day goes by it seems when I don't think my life would be a whole lot better with at least 6.6kW; to the point where I'm a broken record. :)
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klapauzius
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:48 am

TimeHorse wrote: I agree but in addition to the Microcode you'd have to write to speak both J1772 and CHAdeMO the rectifying (charging, A/C to D/C) as well as installing a transformer for the voltage difference, you'd also have to licence the TEPCO plug which somewhere else in the forum I've read goes for $2300. Yes, $2300 just for the stinking CHAdeMO protocol TEPCO plug. What the #$^$%^ are they smoking anyway!?

Why must they make this so difficult. Man, not a day goes by it seems when I don't think my life would be a whole lot better with at least 6.6kW; to the point where I'm a broken record. :)
The microcode cannot be that complicated...after all, its only a charger...we are not trying to solve np-hard problems here...
Yes, these proprietary hardware/protocl issues are annoying. Especially since it did not take a bunch of rocket scientists to come up with
a glorified power plug.
Conceptually it seems straightforward, so again, in a few years you can just buy this stuff off the shelf.

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TimeHorse
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:49 am

klapauzius wrote:The microcode cannot be that complicated...after all, its only a charger...we are not trying to solve np-hard problems here...
Yes, these proprietary hardware/protocl issues are annoying. Especially since it did not take a bunch of rocket scientists to come up with
a glorified power plug.
Conceptually it seems straightforward, so again, in a few years you can just buy this stuff off the shelf.
My main concern is proper throttling of load being controlled by the BMS. If we can control the load, get the connectors and so on, Bob's your uncle, we're don! I agree ideally we just get a 100 or so TEPCO plugs and J1772 receptacles, a enough and variously sized rectifiers and transformers, encase and wire it water-tight and market them to a handful of hobbyists and disenfranchised LEAF owners. Can't imagine more than a 1,000 or so of these being sold though as the 201x LEAF (maybe 2, maybe 3, who knows) will have the 6.6kW but there would still be niche folks like myself with a desire for 19kW power. So in that case, we wait for the TEPCO plug to get mass-produced in China (or for an SAE J1772+2 Prong DC to replace it and for SAE Level 3 to TEPCO plugs to become ubiquitous and obviously then we could match the SAE Level 3 which may be licensed more cheaply). Then we test the 6.6kW rectifier, make it work, then look into 10kW and 20kW upgrades at cost + additional research and labor.

But I just can't see all this practically happening when the TEPCO plug itself is costing $2700. I'd expect the 20kW rectifier to be maybe that much but the plug? It just can't be economical if the plug is the most expensive component.

And that's my 2¢ and armchair engineering. :)

Edit: Thanks to EVDriver the TEPCO plug cost has been corrected.
Last edited by TimeHorse on Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:43 am

klapauzius wrote:
The microcode cannot be that complicated...after all, its only a charger...we are not trying to solve np-hard problems here...
Yes, these proprietary hardware/protocl issues are annoying. Especially since it did not take a bunch of rocket scientists to come up with
a glorified power plug.
Conceptually it seems straightforward, so again, in a few years you can just buy this stuff off the shelf.
in the era of "patenting the best method for wiping one's ass" protocols are made proprietary and complicated for a reason and that reason is MONEY
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EVDRIVER
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Re: A peek at the Leaf's Charger

Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:17 am

TimeHorse wrote:
klapauzius wrote:The microcode cannot be that complicated...after all, its only a charger...we are not trying to solve np-hard problems here...
Yes, these proprietary hardware/protocl issues are annoying. Especially since it did not take a bunch of rocket scientists to come up with
a glorified power plug.
Conceptually it seems straightforward, so again, in a few years you can just buy this stuff off the shelf.
My main concern is proper throttling of load being controlled by the BMS. If we can control the load, get the connectors and so on, Bob's your uncle, we're don! I agree ideally we just get a 100 or so TEPCO plugs and J1772 receptacles, a enough and variously sized rectifiers and transformers, encase and wire it water-tight and market them to a handful of hobbyists and disenfranchised LEAF owners. Can't imagine more than a 1,000 or so of these being sold though as the 201x LEAF (maybe 2, maybe 3, who knows) will have the 6.6kW but there would still be niche folks like myself with a desire for 19kW power. So in that case, we wait for the TEPCO plug to get mass-produced in China (or for an SAE J1772+2 Prong DC to replace it and for SAE Level 3 to TEPCO plugs to become ubiquitous and obviously then we could match the SAE Level 3 which may be licensed more cheaply). Then we test the 6.6kW rectifier, make it work, then look into 10kW and 20kW upgrades at cost + additional research and labor.

But I just can't see all this practically happening when the TEPCO plug itself is costing $2300. I'd expect the 20kW rectifier to be maybe that much but the plug? It just can't be economical if the plug is the most expensive component.

And that's my 2¢ and armchair engineering. :)

$2700. Yes they are expensive. They are also huge.

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