Reliable EV Data for Comparison

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AndyH

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This data will give us a quick and easy 'master key' to understanding Leaf test results and other tech data and help us get a better 'feel' for our user experience.

This page gives a standard 1-page summary of 22 factory electric vehicles - cars and trucks - using lead, NiMH, and lithium batteries.

Also listed are vehicle reliability reports and DOE/Southern California Edison testing.

EVAmerica Test Results and much more from the Idaho National Lab's Full Size EV test page

The INL link also includes test procedures and results of US Postal Service tests.
 
All righty then - let the fun begin. Folks are wondering about how far the Leaf will move on a charge.

We have a starting point - the standardized test cycle range of 'at least' 100 miles on the LA4 (UDDS) drive cycle. But how far can we drive at 45mph or at 65mph? We don't know yet. But we can develop an educated guess.

J1634 used the same test cycle Nissan reports - the LA4 or UDDS. This data is pulled directly from the EVAmerica test results and is sorted by LA4 test cycle range.

range1.jpg


Battery types:
PbA: Lead acid
NiMH: Nickel metal hydride
LiMn: Lithium Manganese

pomona_altra.jpg


This graphic shows results from Southern California road testing on the DOE's 'Pomona Loop'. Details at the link. Notice the range - and 'range of range' from the only lithium powered car in the lineup? :D Lithium is a 'game changer' in more than just charging efficiency!
 
Thanks Andy, That is a really informative chart. The one thing that is tells me is that the range of the Leaf is not a quantum leap in the range of past vehicles. This is good.
 
AndyH said:
We have a starting point - the standardized test cycle range of 'at least' 100 miles on the LA4 (UDDS) drive cycle. But how far can we drive at 45mph or at 65mph? We don't know yet. But we can develop an educated guess. J1634 used the same test cycle Nissan reports - the LA4 or UDDS. This data is pulled directly from the EVAmerica test results and is sorted by LA4 test cycle range.

Very nice chart. This should both ease some fears from some people and raise some in others. For me it confirms what I already knew from past EV experience. Thanks for putting this together.
 
60 MPH is not a good freeway measure as most will drive about 65-70 at times, consumption is far greater from 60 to 65 plus, this is why the old Thinks were limited to 57 MPH even though they could go faster. At least they are more realistic on the RV4. The ford Ranger EV has a 33kwh pack FYI, I have been driving a lithium conversion lately.
 
In all cases the constant-speed 45 mph (probably flat) range is better than the LA4 cycle, as expected. This might not be the maximum non-traffic, flat, constant-speed range, but it is representative of that type of "drivng". Clearly it is not "real world" driving, but possible.

The 60 mph constant is similarly unrepresentative of real-world driving, but the percentage drop from the very similar 45 mph test is useful. Going from 45 to 60 (15 mph increase) shows about a 30% reduction in range. One could easily suspect that increasing another 15 mph (to a constant 75 mph) would result in more than another 30% reduction in range.

Yes, very interesting numbers, thanks.

The good news is that Nissan's actual LA4-range is unknown, and could easily be higher than Nissan's 100 mile "advertised" figure. Nissan's "LA4 test" was probably just run by Nissan in their own facility.
 
EVDRIVER said:
60 MPH is not a good freeway measure as most will drive about 65-70 at times, consumption is far greater from 60 to 65 plus, this is why the old Thinks were limited to 57 MPH even though they could go faster. At least they are more realistic on the RV4. The ford Ranger EV has a 33kwh pack FYI, I have been driving a lithium conversion lately.

The point of this is to use known numbers. Yes - we all sometimes drive faster than the posted limit. We sometimes get up over 100 mph. But within the context of an overall picture this is NOT the norm.

One example is fleet maintenance. Fleets typically schedule maintenance by the hour, even for the vehicles that spend all their time on the interstate. And in spite of nearly no city driving and no commuting, the average speed for the long-haul vehicles is 30 mph.

Andy
 
Here's a look at pack size VS. charge current VS. charge time.

The first chart is sorted by total charge time. The second is sorted on charge 'miles per hour'.

I really like the miles per charge hour number!

Comparing the energy used with charger energy shows charger loss and the energy required for NiMH pack climate control.

[edit] Notice how much more efficient the MiniE's lithium charging is compared with lead and NiMH? Also note the MiniE's 208Wh/mile on LA4. I'll bet the Leaf's 240Wh/mile estimate is high. [/edit]

There are 2 lines for the Leaf. Leaf energy used is estimated '(240)'. The Leaf is well represented with the 3.3kW charger.

charge.jpg



charge2.jpg
 
AndyH said:
J1634 used the same test cycle Nissan reports - the LA4 or UDDS. This data is pulled directly from the EVAmerica test results and is sorted by LA4 test cycle range.

range1.jpg

So, I'd guess, Leaf will atleast have 110 miles range @ 45mph and 85 @ 60mph.
 
evnow said:
So, I'd guess, Leaf will atleast have 110 miles range @ 45mph and 85 @ 60mph.

Is that about 70 miles at 75 mph?

I hope the sticker has City and Highway ranges. I know the Leaf will work for my daily commute (worst case, I will need some type of charging at work) but it will be nice to see some EPA verification!

j.
 
garygid said:
The 60 mph constant is similarly unrepresentative of real-world driving, but the percentage drop from the very similar 45 mph test is useful. Going from 45 to 60 (15 mph increase) shows about a 30% reduction in range. One could easily suspect that increasing another 15 mph (to a constant 75 mph) would result in more than another 30% reduction in range.

LOL, maybe in CA 60mph is unrepresentative, but here in AZ, where there are speed cameras everywhere (not complaining), 60 is very common. Actually, I usually drive in the right lane at 58-59mph and achieve 48-50MPG using cng. :) In fact, I'm willing to bet that I can beat a Prius on the highway mileage (can get low 40's in the city).
 
EVDRIVER said:
60 MPH is not a good freeway measure
It is a great measure if you drive 60!

this is why the old Thinks were limited to 57 MPH even though they could go faster.
All production cars were artificially limited for speed. They could all go faster than their governed top speed. They weren't limited to increase range however.

At least they are more realistic on the RV4.
More realistic than what?
 
darelldd said:
Pffft. In LA it is common to see average freeway speeds of 5mph. When driving an EV for range, congestion is your friend! :)

Exactly - I was wondering which city is this where during daily commute people can hit 70 or more ! Most places would be happy with 40.
 
darelldd said:
EVDRIVER said:
60 MPH is not a good freeway measure
It is a great measure if you drive 60!

Not too safe where speeds are posted at 70 but depends on where you live. I suppose it is good if you drive 55 as well.

this is why the old Thinks were limited to 57 MPH even though they could go faster.
All production cars were artificially limited for speed. They could all go faster than their governed top speed. They weren't limited to increase range however.

I met the person in charge of the Think efficiency calculations and he stated that the only reason the speed was limited was for efficiency, that was determined to be the max speed they could do without large compromise and 55 was actually much better however they felt it was too slow for safe freeway use and consumer acceptance. He even gave me the original calculation notes of the early models for efficiency, range, etc. The new Think models will do at least 65 if not 70, driving 55 on the freeway in some places can be quite dangerous at times. The numbers are quite interesting to examine at various speeds.


At least they are more realistic on the RV4.
More realistic than what?

Then the inflated figures people quote on the internet and elsewhere. Many inflated or incorrect figures are cited by people who have never even been in an EV yet are experts at inaccurate number gathering and interpolation on paper. It's like believing it's remotely possible for the Leaf to do 0-60 in 5 seconds just because it's electric. Most people don't understand the efficiency differences between ICE cars and EVs, the EV penalty is much higher than an ICE.
 
evnow said:
darelldd said:
Pffft. In LA it is common to see average freeway speeds of 5mph. When driving an EV for range, congestion is your friend! :)

Exactly - I was wondering which city is this where during daily commute people can hit 70 or more ! Most places would be happy with 40.


I drive the posted speed limit in many places in CA of 70 and get passed, during rush hour. I also commute between cities and rarely do people drive under 60. Really depends where one lives and it was very uncomfortable being restricted to about 56.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I drive the posted speed limit in many places in CA of 70 and get passed, during rush hour.

Indeed. And I've seen drivers be very "aggressive" in the car pool lane, when they think the car ahead isn't going fast enough for them (and in some instances I'm talking about cars that are already doing 70-75 mph).
 
This type of back and forth is exactly why there's such a sense of disconnect between REAL average speeds and what folks believe because they saw 80 on the speedo during their commute.

Please please don't miss the significance of the 30mph average speed used by the transportation industry for scheduling maintenance.

Before leaving the road for my home office, I drove between 25,000 and 35,000 miles per year supporting customers and working trade shows. In spite of all the time spent on I35, I10, trips to the SF Bay area and annual trade shows in NJ, my average speeds are in the low 30s.

Comparing any vehicle's performance against an erroneous concept - that a driver instantly accelerate to 80mph and stay there until they instantly decelerate to a stop during every drive - will provide a bad result every time.
 
Here's real-world lithium EV data that I've personally collected. Maybe it'll give another look at the 'highway driving' myth. ;)

Most battery or cell discharge curves are from constant loads - like these from my shop:
LIFePO4_1-7C.jpg


Yet there's nothing constant about the load on a battery on the road:
roadload.jpg


Here's GPS data from a real-world EV drive:

speedprofile.jpg


There was no significant traffic and only the first 400 feet was on a road with a 45mph limit - all others were 55 to 70mph. In spite of the appearance of a 60mph drive, average speed for this 26 mile trip was 37mph.

Andy
 
AndyH said:
This type of back and forth is exactly why there's such a sense of disconnect between REAL average speeds and what folks believe because they saw 80 on the speedo during their commute.

Preaching to the choir, sir! That's why I want a power curve so we don't have to so much extrapolate as simply run the numbers. Granted, a true power curve is not really easy to come by. Tesla has one, but we're not going to see one anytime soon -- at least not likely before August never mind December. And if we're to pony up the cash in August I want to at least know if it's gonna get me there and back again. The EPA has some very interesting test vectors that they have under their Dynamometer page that I've been analyzing and if anything I'd rather go by that then any top speed. I like the US06 not because it goes to almost 80 mph. In my state of Virgina I'd never drive that fast even if I could since I don't want a permanent Class-6 Misdemeanor charge on my criminal record. Yes, in Virginia we make routine driving infractions part of your criminal record and for you Californians coming here, we have another Class-6 Misdemeanor called 2-Abreast meaning you can't share a lane, even if you're on a very narrow motorcycle like y'all do back home!

But enough of my crazy East-coast state. The point is, I drive an average of 51 mph to work. That's by no means my top speed. I hit speeds well in access of that (though never more than 14 over the limit -- did I mention the Class-6 Misdemeanor??) and a number of local roads. That's why US06 is such a good measure for me. It has acceleration, deceleration, reasonable maximum speeds and an average speed of about 48 mph, much closer to my 51.

But anyway, thanks for the numbers, sir, as those 3 data points are just what I need, in theory, to compute the power curve for the cars listed. Not the Nissan LEAF, alas, but if I can get it to work for the others, I know I'm on the right track!
 
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