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Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:40 pm
by Herm
If you do a feature per feature comparison, and adjust for options, between a loaded Versa SL w CVT and a Leaf there is a BEV premium of about $15k, $7.5k once you take the tax credit into account. $7.5k will buy you about 56k miles of driving in a Versa (30mpg combined, assuming $4 a gallon of gasoline). Not taking maintenance into account either. That $7500 fed tax credit really makes a difference.

Check it out at http://www.truedelta.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:55 pm
by IBELEAF
It doesn't get any more budget then a base Versa and people who look to buy a budget car would not consider an electric, but lets look at fully loaded 2012 Versa SL. MSRP of it with budget navi is 19,800 and then you have tax (10% in my case), so it brings it up to roughly $22k

For Leaf SL I paid $25.5k OTD with no tax and after incentive, so essentially the price difference is $3.5k for me and for that I get much better performance, great looking dashboard, better nav system, LED headlights and most importantly it's EV. For 2012 model obviously the difference is going to be more, but then you do get additional features as well, still below your $7.5k estimate.

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:03 pm
by yoyofella
Herm wrote:If you do a feature per feature comparison, and adjust for options, between a loaded Versa SL w CVT and a Leaf there is a BEV premium of about $15k, $7.5k once you take the tax credit into account. $7.5k will buy you about 56k miles of driving in a Versa (30mpg combined, assuming $4 a gallon of gasoline). Not taking maintenance into account either. That $7500 fed tax credit really makes a difference.

Check it out at http://www.trudelta.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Herm, I think you mean: http://www.truedelta.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with you on the $15k delta for a comparably equipped Versa. This number is important because the EV bashers sometimes quote the $11k baseline prices when comparing with the Leaf, which is not realistic.

It'll be interesting to see the IIHS crash rating of the 2012 Versa to see the rest of the car has caught up to the Leaf. The 2011 Versa only got an acceptable rating, while the 2011 Leaf received the best possible score. This could be very important for many car buyers.

below is the IIHS crash rating for the Versa, the rating goes from good, acceptable, marginal, and poor. Bare in mind the Leaf scored "good" on every category.


Versa IIHS crash rating:
Frontal:
Overall Good
Chest Good
Head/Neck Acceptable
Left Leg/Foot Good
Restraints Good
Right Leg/Foot Good
Structure/safety cage Good
Side:
Overall Acceptable
Driver Head Protection Good
Driver Head and Neck Good
Driver Pelvis/Leg Marginal
Driver Torso Marginal
Rear Passenger Head Protection Good
Rear Passenger Head and Neck Good
Rear Passenger Pelvis/Leg Good
Rear Passenger Torso Good
Structure/safety cage Good

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:30 pm
by TomT
You guys are lucky not to have to pay tax on an EV. We in California (and most other states) don't get that perk...

What's going to be interesting is to see what happens with BEV sales once all the various credits dry up (which they certainly will eventually)...
IBELEAF wrote:MSRP of it with budget navi is 19,800 and then you have tax (10% in my case), so it brings it up to roughly $22k.

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:12 pm
by IBELEAF
TomT wrote:You guys are lucky not to have to pay tax on an EV. We in California (and most other states) don't get that perk...

What's going to be interesting is to see what happens with BEV sales once all the various credits dry up (which they certainly will eventually)...
IBELEAF wrote:MSRP of it with budget navi is 19,800 and then you have tax (10% in my case), so it brings it up to roughly $22k.
You had the $5k rebate plus some other rebates AFAIK, so who is lucky? :)

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:19 pm
by surfingslovak
EVDRIVER wrote:and in no way a ground-up EV as Nissan would like to make people think.
I think you make a really good point with this statement. There is mounting evidence that the Leaf was not a clean-sheet design, for one reason or another, and to say otherwise is marketing voodoo.

I'm not looking at the Leaf as a $35K vehicle, and I have adjusted my expectations in that regard. Given what happened in the last decade or so, I didn't think that I would be driving a modern EV this soon and at this price. For that, I give Nissan major credit. I am a bit disappointed with their one-size-fits all approach, but they are a mass manufacturer and perhaps I shouldn't expect otherwise.

There are some glaring cosmetic issues as well, many of then have been raised on this thread and elsewhere. Take the plastic plug on the steering column to cover the Versa ignition key mount for example. It's noticeable, and it's one of the things I didn't like during my test drive a few months ago. Cheap carpet and the thin paint would be other pain points. I don't expect an Aston Martin, but all this signals certain lack of attention to detail.

I don't know about you, but I would have appreciated at least 25% more pack capacity, and had Nissan offered several battery size options like Tesla will with their Model S, I would be a lot happier as a customer. Nissan stated several times, that weight was the gating factor here, but I have hard time believing that. Twelve modules would add only about 120 to 150 pounds of weight, including enclosure, wiring and other parts. Based on the observations voiced on this forum, it's more likely that they would not have been able to fit more modules under the seats and since the Leaf is not a clean-sheet design, it would have been hard to accommodate a larger pack in the chassis. It's speculation at this point, but I would consider that the single largest drawback of the Versa legacy. I can live with cheap carpet and thin paint, more battery capacity is really what I want the most.

I think we all understand product design well enough to appreciate the compromises Nissan had to make to bring the Leaf to market. I'm not a fan of the Versa, and I have driven it more than once as a Hertz rental. I am willing to accept an EV derived from the same platform however, because of the unique experience it offers and I hope that there will be more EVs under $50K to choose from down the road.

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:49 pm
by TEG
surfingslovak wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:and in no way a ground-up EV as Nissan would like to make people think.
I think you make a really good point with this statement. There is mounting evidence that the Leaf was not a clean-sheet design, for one reason or another, and to say otherwise is marketing voodoo.

I'm not looking at the Leaf as a $35K vehicle, and I have adjusted my expectations in that regard. Given what happened in the last decade or so, I didn't think that I would be driving a modern EV this soon and at this price. For that, I give Nissan major credit. I am a bit disappointed with their one-size-fits all approach, but they are a mass manufacturer and perhaps I shouldn't expect otherwise.

There are some glaring cosmetic issues as well, many of then have been raised on this thread and elsewhere. Take the plastic plug on the steering column to cover the Versa ignition key mount for example. It's noticeable, and it's one of the things I didn't like during my test drive a few months ago. Cheap carpet and the thin paint would be other pain points. I don't expect an Aston Martin, but all this signals certain lack of attention to detail.
Yes... Yes... Yes...
I don't know about you, but I would have appreciated at least 25% more pack capacity,
Yes... I didn't think I would want it, but lack of public QC makes me wish I had it.

Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:29 pm
by redLEAF
As a few others have mentioned here, although I didn't drive them back to back; today I dropped off my VW at my dealership for service and as they were to have it all day, they provided a loaner (was actually an Enterprise rental) which turned out to be a mid-level 2011 Versa (it had A/C and power windows but steel wheels so think it was a 1.8L S). Not bad but lot's of hard plastic (nowhere near as nice an interior as my Mazda3 GT) but not bad for it's price range. As my drive to work from the dealership is a bit longer I was curious how it handled some bad pavement, etc. and it really did OK; a little bit of pitching but not as excessive as my son's smart coupe. The cloth seats were decent, steering wheel just OK (again hard plastic) and the door armrest unusually soft (I could see these wearing out quickly) ... acceleration did not feel anywhere near as brisk as the Mazda3 (of course my '06 is a 2.3L) and that drone of the 4 cyl. was really apparent (in comparison to the eerie silence of the LEAF). The car does have good room overall so having the LEAF of a much similar size should be fine -- after all Nissan needs to save some money by using some components from the Versa parts bin but I think there will be even more comparisons when the newest Versa arrives. The stark black interior of this Versa already is 'hard' compared to the lightness of the LEAF so color I'm sure helps in the LEAF's case --- lighter color appears to weigh less, softer tone, etc. I think Nissan has done enough to differentiate the LEAF and Versa but there will always be comparisons.

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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:34 pm
by rawhog
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Re: LEAF -vs- Versa

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:52 pm
by Herm
surfingslovak wrote: I think you make a really good point with this statement. There is mounting evidence that the Leaf was not a clean-sheet design, for one reason or another, and to say otherwise is marketing voodoo.
I'm not looking at the Leaf as a $35K vehicle, and I have adjusted my expectations in that regard.
The Leaf is what it is, just remember that battery pack is not free. A lousy extra kwh of battery capacity will buy you the 4 cylinder engine used in the Versa, just to give you an idea of the scale of costs. Nissan made a decision on the battery size, time will tell if its appropiate.. I think battery size was chosen to allow a life of 10-15 years use under average usage conditions.

What body panels are interchangeable with the Versa?, probably none.. we know it uses suspension components from different Nissan models besides the Versa. We know the unitbody chassis is not from the Versa either, but perhaps parts of the design are shared (probably the rear is copied exactly from the Versa chassis).

I believe there is still some room to stretch the battery pack to the rear, before it runs into the torque tube of the rear suspension.