LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:44 pm

That isn't an S+. It's an SV+ or SL+.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

salyavin
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Dec 2019
Leaf Number: 318726
Location: Littleton , CO

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:01 pm

taking sagebrush's link further the LEAF comes in last in efficiency compared to Tesla, Bolt, and Niro
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 1&id=42514

but based on the MSRP yes it is most likely an SV+ or possibly an SL+ depending on options.

The S+ does slightly better, maybe as good or better than a Niro?

I am disappointed in the continued lack of battery cooling in the LEAF but do not care for Tesla or the Bolt (I am impressed with the Bolt battery). I need to try the Niro. By the time I need to replace a car the options will be very different.

Yes Tesla "fans" seem to invade other groups on forums and facebook etc. I never see that with Kia or GM at least for EVs (I cannot speak for other segments like pickup trucks).

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1995
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:12 pm

My wager is that Niro still beats S+ by a little. I dont know why nissan doesn't put standard tire pressure at 42-44 psi like Tesla to up their epa a bit. I get the feeling the Leaf takes a bit more skill than a Tesla to up your efficiency. The steady foot which doesn't regen on the highway helps a lot.


As an aside, this video (at 3:44) shows messages from Nissan saying the Plus has a fan on the battery. I don't believe it.

https://youtu.be/YFy4XrwDYl4
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

Kieran973
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:15 pm

danrjones wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:35 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:26 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:59 am
I would also be curious to understand how often and for how long the car sits at or above 7 temperature bars.
If the temperature bar calibration has stayed the same as the Gen1 LEAF, 6 bars starts at ~ 80F and ends somewhere after 95F -- 100F
That sounds about right. Last check my 2018 40 was showing temp smack in the middle (that's 6 bars?) and my actual sensors were 91.6 to 88.4.
I know my vehicle has spent about half the time in 7 bar territory on average for July and Aug.

It lags the outside temp profile a bit, as you would expect. Most mornings it is 6 bars and same with lunch but by afternoon it is 7 bars and that carries well past sundown. If I was truly truly bored I would collect temp readings every hour for a 24 hour period or 48 hour period and chart it out. I'm not that bored though.
Last week I did a 300 mile highway drive in my SV Plus with one 40 minute DCFC stop. I arrived home with what I believe was 8 bars on the battery temp gauge (2 bars past the halfway mark). It was late afternoon when I got home, ambient temps were in the low 90s, and the car was in partial shade which would turn into full shade about an hour later. Since the car was at 12% SOC, and since I was under the impression that L1 charging adds negligible heat to the battery, I immediately plugged in to a 110v outlet. The next morning, at around 11 AM, I unplugged the car at about 50% SOC. Ambient temps were in the high 80s, and the car had been in full sun for about 2 hours. I was very shocked to see that the battery temp gauge was still at 8 bars. I immediately moved the car it into our fully shaded car port, turned it off, then turned it on again. Weirdly, the battery temp gauge then read 7 bars after only a few seconds of shade. So maybe the gauge is finicky. But I'm definitely not going to L1 charge during the day time anymore in this weather (I'm in the NYC region, where it's been consistently in the high 80s to low 90s for the last month or so). Since I can't reach any 110v outlets from our car port, I guess I will have to move the car in the evening to an uncovered part of the driveway and only charge at night, and then move it back to the car port in the early mornings.
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

cwerdna
Posts: 11007
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:27 am

^^^
Forget the temp bars. Look instead at Leaf Spy temp sensor readings.

IIRC, the temp bars on gen 1 Leafs also had some black box adjustment based upon battery condition. They also were nowhere near granular enough. I like seeing things like my battery temps being like 75 F and if I park it outside overnight when it's cold them being at say 67 F.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1995
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:49 am

Yeah, any charging does a reasonable job at keeping up battery temp. In the opposite example last fall late October I had about 500 miles to do in a day. My destination (about 230 miles with a little local driving) was at the far reach of the car on a charge. As the destination (Door County WI) had no DC charging, I did a top up on Chademo on the way up (rather than pull in on sub 10%), then level 2 and level 1 charging during the day while on site, then that evening on the way back a partial DC charge (1/2 hour) in Milwaukee to make the final leg to Chicago.

Ambient temps were in the low 50s for most of the day. The early DC charge in Milwaukee on the way up allowed me to get my battery temp into the low 70s and keep pretty good efficiency for the drive (arrived with 30% battery). The level 2 charge while on site maintained the battery temp pretty well, but the level 1 (car was outside) very slowly drifted down (about 5 hours of L2 and 4 hours of L1), but only by a few degrees. (Left with 80% battery) The final 30-40minutes of DC blast on the way home in Milwaukee put the temps back in the low 80s. Temps were flat to slightly lower for the final 80 miles on the highway given the 30 degree delta to ambient. Without that L1 charge for my final 4 hours at my second stop, i would have been driving a much colder battery back, needing a different charging solution for the return trip.


New battery drop post on tesla forum. This one is down 13% in 18 months. Again, it feels more and more like the battery dynamics are more similar than less similar with the gen of cars. I will admit to also suffering from some confirmation bias.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 49/page-64
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

jlsoaz
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:15 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:45 pm
That's what bugs me. Bolt drivers don't try to take down Leaf drivers, and vice versa.
[....]
Bolt drivers, and perhaps Leaf drivers, can get defensive and (I would say) in some cases irrational, particularly in a "versus Tesla" discussion. Sometimes it will boil down to their insistence that their personal preference (sure, they're your preferences, like what you like) should be taken, ipso facto, as
- representative of an undefined but major portion of the market, Might a major portion of the present or future market run in parallel to your personal preferences? Maybe. Is it that way because you emotionally feel it or want it or think that efficiency thinking trumps a lot of things? Nope.
- and that there are no real objective differences between the value of vehicles, it's all (in effect) personal preference (nope).

One point of frustration for me with Bolt drivers is that I see some of them absolutely loving their BEVs, but perhaps not realizing that some of them were more or less going to fall in love with any decent similar vehicle, but the market is so starved for competition in this area that some of them have exaggerated the values of the vehicle, IMO. Of course, yes, some of them see the vehicle accurately and love it and that's great.

There's a broader issue here for me that I can relate to the long-term-discussion story arc and to 62 kWh batteries:

I can't remember for sure if it's discussed in the documentary "Who KIlled The Electric Car?" but there was thinking, which I think played a role in some of Nissan's early decision-making, that the average commute is only so far, and so if you build a BEV to go x amount past that distance, then it should be good to fit y percent of the needs of z percent of the population. I don't remember how it might be framed to look at the early thinking around the Volt PHEV, but perhaps they were to some extent responding to this. I think Tesla's early BEV thinking was different - going after a much more expensive, elitist, lower-volume, longer-range, more-durable (spending money up-front to try to provide for longer battery life) and faster and more exciting (to some) portion of the market.

My point in the here-and-now is that Tesla was in some ways right to take the approach they took, and, whether one agrees or not (or to whatever extent one agrees) that we should be more willing to discuss this calmly, and mull it over, and learn what we can from the discussion. In what way do I think they were "right"? I think I mean this not only in a sense of defining their own competency and finding a profitable niche in a large $2 Trillion (at the time) global vehicle market, but also in terms of a long-term vision for how many BEV producers can find a business-sustainable way to disrupt the established hydrocarbon-burner vehicle market.

My own over-simplified point on this discussion overall is that I see manufacturers, back in 2010, and even now, pursuing the sub-compact and compact segments in the US market with $40k BEVs, whereas I think BEV sales volumes would be much higher and better if manufacturers would pursue other larger interior volume segments, and by-and-large with more luxury. Just because BEV helps with the environment doesn't mean that BEVs have to be designed and produced and sold as low-margin and/or geeky-looking and/or painfully-practical family "econocars". On the contrary, I think once the BEV powertrain is in place and performing well, it frees up car production, sales, ownership and operation to leaving behind much (but perhaps not all) of the econocar thinking and just kind of "getting on with it" as to the other considerations we all have when looking at vehicles.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

SageBrush
Posts: 5183
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:18 am

jlsoaz wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:15 am
My point in the here-and-now is that Tesla was in some ways right to take the approach they took
Tesla will reach production capacity of ~ ONE MILLION cars annually in the next few months, and that does not include the Austin Gigafactory. Nissan EV has degenerated into +/- a compliance car program

Only in this forum can a few people be found who even bother to act as if there is some reason to compare the two.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1995
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:27 am

Top down is a tried and true approach. It lets you be moddstly profitable and you learn to scale and work your way down the economic ladder.

Leaf is more than a compliance car, and is one of the few EVs available generally globally now. It is a distant 3rd though compared to Tesla M3 and a but behind Zoe, in a now wide mix of cars.

https://insideevs.com/news/436920/globa ... june-2020/
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

jlsoaz
Posts: 808
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:40 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:18 am
jlsoaz wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:15 am
My point in the here-and-now is that Tesla was in some ways right to take the approach they took
Tesla will reach production capacity of ~ ONE MILLION cars annually in the next few months, and that does not include the Austin Gigafactory. Nissan EV has degenerated into +/- a compliance car program

Only in this forum can a few people be found who even bother to act as if there is some reason to compare the two.
Part of the broader point though is to open the floor to a discussion that should have been had, but largely has not. It is not to get caught up in the momentary tit-for-tat of my car is better than your car. It is to re-examine and understand and learn from matters. To be sure, the attempt to discuss it in a forum that is dedicated, by name, to one vehicle (and arguably to an approach to the industry that was in some ways ill-conceived) is in itself not a completely promising idea, and I do try to discuss on more neutral-territory forums. And I can agree that it would be naive to expect too much from a breakout of this discussion. Still sometimes we take our discussion where we find it, or try to make it.

So, what is a broader principle or lesson to discuss here? One example might be somewhere in my recent attempt to discuss that, in my view, Nissan should have introduced a competitive long-range Infiniti BEV in the early 2010s. Ok, they didn't, but (more importantly to this discussion) my recollection from the time was that Nissan didn't even really seem to understand the importance of the question at the time. The Infiniti exec decision-making at the time (from the rare statements that seemed to come out) did not reflect (that I could see) an understanding of BEVs as potentially competitive long-range entry-level luxury vehicles. Yes, I'm sure it would have been a mountain to climb to go back to Nissan engineering and demand (way) better on the battery energy density front, but by then Tesla was out there showing what could be done, so that would have helped with that argument. And indeed, Nissan had been putting forth innovative lithium-ion (compliance) vehicles since the late 90s or early 2000s, so they should have had a good idea of what was possible.

Anyway, they were not-talk-to-able, and the usual mis-characterizations of the market and disagreements about demand probably got mixed in there (i.e.: the usual automaker implicit stance of "no there isn't sufficient demand, and we know better than you do). So, even though in theory Nissan was different at the time than the other automakers (giving more customers what they wanted) they never got to the point, in time, of giving the more demanding intercity-travel BEV customers what they wanted, until very recently (and even then, there is rapidgate and such).
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

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