Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

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GRA said:
Oh, here's a post that's actually on-topic. IMO, any current BEV that doesn't DCFC at a max. rate of 1.5C or better, or that takes more than 30 minutes to FC from 20-80% is at best un-competitive, at worst obsolescent if not obsolete. Any BEV that takes more than 45 minutes to charge from 20-80%, i.e. the Bolt/EUV is obsolete.

Medium (say sub-20kWh, e.g. Volt/RAV4 Prime) and small (<10?kWh) battery PHEVs should have OBCs that enable them to fully opportunity charge at (sufficiently powerful) L2s in 2-2.5 hours.
Agree with your second point but disagree with the first.

BEVs are best used as daily drivers by owners who can charge at home. DCFC is not important for that use case.

FWIW, I’ve never run across a charger that would deliver more than 0.8C to my SL+, although I’m sure they exist somewhere.
 
If you're only using a BEV for routine local use and can charge at home, you don't need FC at all. But few people are willing to limit their options that way, any more than they're willing to buy something like a Smart to commute in; even though 78% of Americans commute solo by car and have families with no more than two kids, most of us have cars that can seat 5 or more.
 
oxothuk said:
GRA said:
Oh, here's a post that's actually on-topic. IMO, any current BEV that doesn't DCFC at a max. rate of 1.5C or better, or that takes more than 30 minutes to FC from 20-80% is at best un-competitive, at worst obsolescent if not obsolete. Any BEV that takes more than 45 minutes to charge from 20-80%, i.e. the Bolt/EUV is obsolete.

Medium (say sub-20kWh, e.g. Volt/RAV4 Prime) and small (<10?kWh) battery PHEVs should have OBCs that enable them to fully opportunity charge at (sufficiently powerful) L2s in 2-2.5 hours.
Agree with your second point but disagree with the first.

BEVs are best used as daily drivers by owners who can charge at home. DCFC is not important for that use case.

FWIW, I’ve never run across a charger that would deliver more than 0.8C to my SL+, although I’m sure they exist somewhere.
Ideally you would like a charge rate of 10C so you could duplicate the fueling time for an IC vehicle. I doubt that will happen. OTH, how many times have you waited in line at a Costco gas station to fill up. Even at a local station sometimes you need to wait for an open pump, If you can charge at home, time to charge is simply not an issue. A half hour break every 3-4 hours while on the road isn't a bad thing. An hour to charge is probably too long for most people though.
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
That minority was 44% of U.S. households who couldn't charge at home a few years back.
What I say is it is not a problem now, but is a concern for the longer term. It might be a serious problem in 20 years or so.
The worst pollution is in major urban areas, where the majority of people are renters and ZEVs are most needed, so it is a problem now. In addition, single-person households are now the largest 2nd largest % (27%) household type in the U.S., and they are more likely to live in rental property. Even among those who can charge at home, a large % (those who don't own or who don't own detached, single family homes with garages supplied with electricity) are almost always limited to L1.

That's not very useful.

You assume, with no evidence what so ever, that the ONLY reason for BEVs is to reduce air pollution.

Yet even you have admitted otherwise. BEVs are just nicer to drive. BEVs are more convenient.

40% of likely new car buyers think that they will buy a BEV. Sadly, less than about 5% of the new cars for sale will be BEVs.

Yet according to you, the people that gain the least from BEVs need to be first in line, not last. A BEV isn't more convenient when you need to rely 100% on public charging.



GRA said:
Of course, an even better answer for dense urban areas is mixed-use development plus providing excellent public transit and infrastructure that enables active transportation (walking/biking/skating etc.), thus eliminating most people's needs to own a car.

To remake the US into the model of Manhattan isn't realistic. I don't live in a city.



GRA said:
WetEV said:
One kinda good thing is we can watch how most of the rest of the world handles this. The USA is behind, so we get to watch how the leaders do.

For example, Norway has a home ownership rate of about 80%, higher than the USA's 65%, but still a significant number of people renting. EV ownership is over 20% of cars on the road, how are renters handling it?


We already know how the rest of the world is handling it. In countries that offer large bribes, big perks and/or strict mandates, sales are higher, and where they don't they're lower. Big surprise.

Did you miss the point? I was talking about how Norway handles the issue of people without single family homes. What does "large bribes, big perks and/or strict mandates" have to do with that?
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Yet in this case it's absolutely on point, since people won't buy a car unless it does what they want it to. It doesn't matter whether someone else thinks this or that tech is superior if the customers won't buy it.

How a customer answers a marketing survey today and how a customer will spend their money years in the future are not the same.

The customer will have changed.

The product will have changed, and not in just in range and recharge time.

The infrastructure will have changed.

For that matter, the whole economy will have changed.


Sure, but people's needs and wants likely won't significantly. They're still going to expect and demand a car do certain things, and be affordable to them.

Ah, but things do change. Starting with the last thing, affordable. The affordable car in a decade is likely the BEV, as BEVs are likely to be cheaper to buy, as well as having more range and charging faster faster than today's BEVs. People change as well. Sure, there will be some that are willing to pay a premium for a car that can drive the Cannonball run 3 hours faster. But most will not.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
Near term, some things can be said with confidence.

Most EV production for the next year will sell quickly. If it isn't already sold. There is no shortage of customer demand for EVs that can be produced near term.


The survey in question indicated most private customers expected BEVs would have improved enough by 2023 or 2024, so we're not talking about decades in the future, we're talking near term. If BEVs can't meet those requirements, then no sale.

Survey? I'm talking about orders. Tesla? Late Spring at the earliest, if you order today. A year at worst. Ford? Harder to tell, but back in October all 2021 Mach-E orders not yet scheduled were moved to 2022. Good news is buyer will get more range. About the only EV you can buy off the lot is a LEAF, and still you might wait a month. Or buy from a distant dealer.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
Seems fairly clear to me that EV production and sales will double, double again and such ... until a limit is reached. A limit must be reached sometime after most cars sold are EVs... more than a decade from now, for the USA. Norway is already there.


Do you see us in the U.S. providing the same level of incentives that Norway does? Do you see the U.S. suddenly shrinking down to the size of Norway, or our climate extremes aligning with theirs? Obviously, as BEVs (or any other AFV tech) improves, sales will increase (assuming no competing AFV tech is judged superior by customers), but as long as sales remain driven by government actions there's no indication that BEVs can compete on their own, except at the high end when people can afford multiple toys.

I could see the US providing the same level of incentives that the Swiss do. Basically zero, at the Federal level.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/switzerland-reports-40-market-share-for-electrified-vehicles-year-to-date/

Switzerland has a 9.9% BEV market share, and *EVs are at 18.2%, year to date.

The US is at slightly more than a quarter of that.
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Yet in this case it's absolutely on point, since people won't buy a car unless it does what they want it to. It doesn't matter whether someone else thinks this or that tech is superior if the customers won't buy it.

Again a simple answer for a complex question isn't meaningful or useful.

42


Yet 9,000 consumers around the world were able to answer the questions. Do you think auto company marketeers consider their answers neither 'meaningful or useful'?

Oh, I could give an answer. 42

I've given a useful answer, but you keep ignoring it. So 42 it is.

While marketing might consider the answers useful, they also better know where to apply grains of salt. And boulders of salt.
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
The cheapest "300-mile" BEV (Model 3 LR AWD, 333.8 miles Hwy) is currently base-priced at $51,190 MSRP + dest. The average new car price hit $41k back in July. Meanwhile, an el cheapo Nissan Versa Sedan has a base MSRP + dest. of $15,955 and gets 35 mpg Hwy with a 10.8 gallon tank (378 miles Hwy). And unlike the BEV, it will do a real 300 miles plus on the road over and over again with no degradation, and can be fully refueled in 2 minutes or less, no 80% nonsense. Now, the Model 3 is a lot higher performance, but the fact is there still isn't a single "300 mile" BEV priced below $40k, never mind $30 or $20k.

Cars.com shows 990 new Versa's for sale right now.

Wait time for a Tesla can be 12 months.

So, if the Versa is such a great deal, why are people not buying them off the lot now and waiting for the Tesla?

Oh, and while I could buy a Sentra from the closest dealer, a Versa from the next closest, I have to drive 70 miles to buy a LEAF off the lot. I can get one closer if I'm willing to wait a few weeks. Or however long a vehicle in transit takes. Why is that?


Which just tells us that the people at the low end of the income scale have largely dropped from the customer base for now, while those at the higher end can buy what they want (and probably own more than one car).

It does? Really? Amazing what 'facts' you pull out...

People at the low end of the income scale tend to buy used cars. Used cars are more cost effective. New car buyers are NOT an average cross section of society.



GRA said:
A Versa is cheap basic transportation (in the U.S.), and most people who are buying are willing and able to spend a bit more to get a fair bit more. But as the price increases, you get less and less value for each additional dollar spent. Even so, despite the Versa being a basic econocar, it will take you anywhere you want to go on any paved road in the U.S. in reasonable comfort, and do so in less time (once you get beyond un-recharged range) than any Tesla, no matter how expensive. Is the Model 3 a nicer car? Of course, but it's not 3+ times nicer, and it's less capable. Also, the Versa has lots more competition from other ICEs and HEVs that don't cost more than 3 times as much for the same (or better) range; they usually jsut provide more comfort, more performance or more bling, but their basic transportation capability is the same.

Ah yes, ignoring some of the key factors. Crash safety, for one. I'd far rather be in my LEAF when some old car plows into the back of my car while I'm stopped on I-405 than in a Versa. How much is being uninjured worth?
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
California can select from the tiny amount of renewable hydrogen for the minuscule amount needed to fill the infinitesimal number of FCEVs on the road.
Hydrogen is still dirtier than coal.
Keep writing it often enough and you may just convince yourself. California and the numerous countries with hydrogen strategies are all busy increasing the production of green H2, for the obvious reason that they know they need to if they're to get off fossil fuels for transport (also industry, heating, energy storage etc.).

Sure. Put a time period on it. When will enough green hydrogen be produced to supply industry? Until we hit this point, all hydrogen for other uses increases the use of fossil fuels.

Worldwide production of green hydrogen is projected to reach about 11 MMT by 2030. That's huge.

https://www.h2bulletin.com/global-planned-green-hydrogen-capacity-reaches-94-gw-by-2030/


Worldwide usage of hydrogen is currently about 80 MMT. That's bigger.

Hydrogen is produced from coal (mostly in China), which is very dirty.
Hydrogen is produced from natural gas, which is dirtier than burning coal for heat.
Hydrogen is produced from natural gas, and some of the CO2 is captured, and is still dirtier than burning coal for heat.

If California wanted to reduce fossil fuel use, they would discourage hydrogen use for at least the next couple of decades.
 
GRA said:
Oh, here's a post that's actually on-topic. IMO, any current BEV that doesn't DCFC at a max. rate of 1.5C or better, or that takes more than 30 minutes to FC from 20-80% is at best un-competitive, at worst obsolescent if not obsolete. Any BEV that takes more than 45 minutes to charge from 20-80%, i.e. the Bolt/EUV is obsolete.

Medium (say sub-20kWh, e.g. Volt/RAV4 Prime) and small (<10?kWh) battery PHEVs should have OBCs that enable them to fully opportunity charge at (sufficiently powerful) L2s in 2-2.5 hours.

Your opinion. You don't consider enough use cases.

I mostly agree with the second point.
 
johnlocke said:
Ideally you would like a charge rate of 10C so you could duplicate the fueling time for an IC vehicle. I doubt that will happen.

It might happen, with a smaller battery BEV, but power delivery to a car is limited in both current and voltage by safety and conductor size limits. And charge rate in kW is what matters, not the C rate.

About 1000 Volts and about 500 Amps are the practical limits. That's 500 kW. Some of the newer cells can take 10 C, and a 50kWh battery car might charge at 10C. Which still wouldn't be as fast as fueling an ICE.

Gas pumps for consumers are limited to 10 gallons per minute. At the fleet average for 2021 of 25 MPG, that's 15000 miles per hour.

500kW at 3 miles per kWh is only 1500 miles per hour.

A cross country drive NY to LA is about 2,906 miles. That's two hours of charging, and 12 minutes of gas pumping. On a drive that is 48 hours at 60 MPH average speed.

A few people will care.
 
You know, I'd considered writing replies to all the above, but since we've argued and discussed every single point numerous times before and neither of us is going to change the other's opinion, let alone influence the countries and companies that have and are making decisions to spend hundreds of millions or in many cases billions doing all of the above, or the general public's opinion of what they require from a car, I've got better things to do than repeat the same arguments with you for the nth time. We'll just have to agree to disagree and see how things play out.
 
johnlocke said:
oxothuk said:
GRA said:
Oh, here's a post that's actually on-topic. IMO, any current BEV that doesn't DCFC at a max. rate of 1.5C or better, or that takes more than 30 minutes to FC from 20-80% is at best un-competitive, at worst obsolescent if not obsolete. Any BEV that takes more than 45 minutes to charge from 20-80%, i.e. the Bolt/EUV is obsolete.

Medium (say sub-20kWh, e.g. Volt/RAV4 Prime) and small (<10?kWh) battery PHEVs should have OBCs that enable them to fully opportunity charge at (sufficiently powerful) L2s in 2-2.5 hours.
Agree with your second point but disagree with the first.

BEVs are best used as daily drivers by owners who can charge at home. DCFC is not important for that use case.

FWIW, I’ve never run across a charger that would deliver more than 0.8C to my SL+, although I’m sure they exist somewhere.
Ideally you would like a charge rate of 10C so you could duplicate the fueling time for an IC vehicle. I doubt that will happen. OTH, how many times have you waited in line at a Costco gas station to fill up. Even at a local station sometimes you need to wait for an open pump, If you can charge at home, time to charge is simply not an issue. A half hour break every 3-4 hours while on the road isn't a bad thing. An hour to charge is probably too long for most people though.


We'll have to see whether or not we can achieve same as ICE recharging times. It may be possible, but not with current technologies. Personally I don't get gas at Costco, and even during busy times I've never had to wait more than 5 minutes to get to a pump. As I rarely choose such times to refuel, my typical wait time is zero.

A half hour break every 4 hours may be acceptable to many if not most, although 20 minutes (typical fast food stop) would be preferable, and those of us with greater endurance would prefer 5 or 6 hours. The latter also allows many weekend round-trips to be done un-recharged.

Oh, we can add the Cadillac Lyric to the list of large battery BEVs (Lucid, F-150, maybe others I'm overlooking) that will have an 80A (19.2 kW) OBC (not clear to me if it's standard or optional; the article below implies it's standard, but we'll have to wait for specs of various trim levels), supplying up to 51 miles/hr. Discussion of OBC rate wanted can be found in the comments at the link below, with much the same range of opinions and repetitiveness as here: https://electrek.co/2021/08/17/cadillac-lyriq-first-look-this-will-sell-like-hotcakes/
 
Suppose all cars are BEVs.

High end cars... all the goodies.

Low end cars... as inexpensive as possible.

Cadillac is a high end brand. Expect all the goodies. Top charging on L2.

Chevy is the the low end cars. Cheapest car on the market is "2021 Chevrolet Spark | $13,400"

https://www.carfax.com/blog/cheapest-cars


How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging? Not zero, need upgrades to wire, connectors, actual charger and cooling. But the key point is probably can raise the price for it, for the Cadillac. And lower the cost for the Chevy. Less copper means not only lower cost directly, but lower weight.

Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
 
WetEV said:
How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging?
Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
Panel upgrade, presuming the service is adequate.

This is one of GRA's more off-the-wall ideas, and that is saying something since he spends most of his time on hydrogen :lol:
 
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging?
Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
Panel upgrade, presuming the service is adequate.

This is one of GRA's more off-the-wall ideas, and that is saying something since he spends most of his time on hydrogen :lol:


Anyone who doesn't want to or can't afford to upgrade a panel at home can just use whatever the current panel allows, but a car like the Bolt can still use the full 48A when/where available, just as other cars with 80A OBCs can use the full 80A when that's available. As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade, until such time as the public decides that's enough. Neither range or OBC charging rates have yet reached that point, although it may be 80A is there, as we're still a ways from not being able to fully charge in 8 hours with 208V @ 80A (133kWh if no taper); the biggest battery Lucid is 118kWh. Beyond that, maybe the next step instead of installing 80A+ public L2s may be to install low-power (ca. 25kW) public DCFCs, as BMW and others did some years back. Depends on how pricing goes, and the usage profile.
 
GRA said:
As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade
You really do live in a world devoid of inconvenient facts. As I told you above, Tesla offered 72/80 Amp OBC 5 years ago, and now the max is 48 Amps.
 
Yep. Although it's possible Tesla could swing in the other direction again.

But, commensurate w/Tesla's 48 amp OBC max in the US for years (looks like it happened Nov 2018: https://electrek.co/2018/11/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-option-price-changes/), their gen 3 (current gen) wall connector is also only 48 amp max output:
https://www.tesla.com/support/installation-manuals-wall-connector
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen3_WallConnector_Installation_Manual.pdf

Gen 1 and 2 could do 80 amp max output. We had gen 1's at work (two different revs) which all got replaced by gen 2's. And yes, we had some 72 amp and 80 amp OBC older Teslas (pre-3 and pre-Y).
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade
You really do live in a world devoid of inconvenient facts. As I told you above, Tesla offered 72/80 Amp OBC 5 years ago, and now the max is 48 Amps.


I'm aware of it, and so far they're unique. Now that the competition is increasingly offering 80A OBCs, I won't be surprised if Tesla does so again. I expect Rivian will need to do so when they introduce the 400 mile truck.
 
GRA said:
Now that the competition is increasingly offering 80A OBCs, I won't be surprised if Tesla does so again.
Who ? Which EVs ?

Have you built your delusion on the PR of the Ford 150 EV vapor-truck ?

Amusing irony that you spend so much time railing against 'elite' Tesla but expect $100k Ford toys sold to a few wannabe cowboys in MacMansions to set the industry standard
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
Now that the competition is increasingly offering 80A OBCs, I won't be surprised if Tesla does so again.
Who ? Which EVs ?

Have you built your delusion on the PR of the Ford 150 EV vapor-truck ?

Amusing irony that you spend so much time railing against 'elite' Tesla but expect $100k Ford toys sold to a few wannabe cowboys in MacMansions to set the industry standard

That 'vapor-truck' currently has 160k reservations, which I'm sure you'd be touting if only it were a Tesla (what does that make the repeatedly-delayed Cybertruck?) . But not to worry, the Cadillac Lyric (base MSRP $59,995, i.e. Model Y range), the Hummer and presumably the Escalade (IQ?) will also have and need (apparently standard) 80kW OBCs, as at least the latter two will apparently offer 200kWh battery packs. The big battery Rivian will be 180kWh.
 
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