GRA
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:58 pm

You know, I'd considered writing replies to all the above, but since we've argued and discussed every single point numerous times before and neither of us is going to change the other's opinion, let alone influence the countries and companies that have and are making decisions to spend hundreds of millions or in many cases billions doing all of the above, or the general public's opinion of what they require from a car, I've got better things to do than repeat the same arguments with you for the nth time. We'll just have to agree to disagree and see how things play out.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:08 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm
oxothuk wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:03 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:28 pm
Oh, here's a post that's actually on-topic. IMO, any current BEV that doesn't DCFC at a max. rate of 1.5C or better, or that takes more than 30 minutes to FC from 20-80% is at best un-competitive, at worst obsolescent if not obsolete. Any BEV that takes more than 45 minutes to charge from 20-80%, i.e. the Bolt/EUV is obsolete.

Medium (say sub-20kWh, e.g. Volt/RAV4 Prime) and small (<10?kWh) battery PHEVs should have OBCs that enable them to fully opportunity charge at (sufficiently powerful) L2s in 2-2.5 hours.
Agree with your second point but disagree with the first.

BEVs are best used as daily drivers by owners who can charge at home. DCFC is not important for that use case.

FWIW, I’ve never run across a charger that would deliver more than 0.8C to my SL+, although I’m sure they exist somewhere.
Ideally you would like a charge rate of 10C so you could duplicate the fueling time for an IC vehicle. I doubt that will happen. OTH, how many times have you waited in line at a Costco gas station to fill up. Even at a local station sometimes you need to wait for an open pump, If you can charge at home, time to charge is simply not an issue. A half hour break every 3-4 hours while on the road isn't a bad thing. An hour to charge is probably too long for most people though.

We'll have to see whether or not we can achieve same as ICE recharging times. It may be possible, but not with current technologies. Personally I don't get gas at Costco, and even during busy times I've never had to wait more than 5 minutes to get to a pump. As I rarely choose such times to refuel, my typical wait time is zero.

A half hour break every 4 hours may be acceptable to many if not most, although 20 minutes (typical fast food stop) would be preferable, and those of us with greater endurance would prefer 5 or 6 hours. The latter also allows many weekend round-trips to be done un-recharged.

Oh, we can add the Cadillac Lyric to the list of large battery BEVs (Lucid, F-150, maybe others I'm overlooking) that will have an 80A (19.2 kW) OBC (not clear to me if it's standard or optional; the article below implies it's standard, but we'll have to wait for specs of various trim levels), supplying up to 51 miles/hr. Discussion of OBC rate wanted can be found in the comments at the link below, with much the same range of opinions and repetitiveness as here: https://electrek.co/2021/08/17/cadillac ... -hotcakes/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:49 pm

Suppose all cars are BEVs.

High end cars... all the goodies.

Low end cars... as inexpensive as possible.

Cadillac is a high end brand. Expect all the goodies. Top charging on L2.

Chevy is the the low end cars. Cheapest car on the market is "2021 Chevrolet Spark | $13,400"

https://www.carfax.com/blog/cheapest-cars


How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging? Not zero, need upgrades to wire, connectors, actual charger and cooling. But the key point is probably can raise the price for it, for the Cadillac. And lower the cost for the Chevy. Less copper means not only lower cost directly, but lower weight.

Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
WetEV
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SageBrush
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:11 pm

WetEV wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:49 pm
How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging?
Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
Panel upgrade, presuming the service is adequate.

This is one of GRA's more off-the-wall ideas, and that is saying something since he spends most of his time on hydrogen :lol:
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

GRA
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:11 pm
WetEV wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:49 pm
How much does 70 Amp charging cost, relative to 30 Amp charging?
Even if the real cost difference isn't that great, the MSRP difference can be.
Panel upgrade, presuming the service is adequate.

This is one of GRA's more off-the-wall ideas, and that is saying something since he spends most of his time on hydrogen :lol:

Anyone who doesn't want to or can't afford to upgrade a panel at home can just use whatever the current panel allows, but a car like the Bolt can still use the full 48A when/where available, just as other cars with 80A OBCs can use the full 80A when that's available. As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade, until such time as the public decides that's enough. Neither range or OBC charging rates have yet reached that point, although it may be 80A is there, as we're still a ways from not being able to fully charge in 8 hours with 208V @ 80A (133kWh if no taper); the biggest battery Lucid is 118kWh. Beyond that, maybe the next step instead of installing 80A+ public L2s may be to install low-power (ca. 25kW) public DCFCs, as BMW and others did some years back. Depends on how pricing goes, and the usage profile.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:06 pm

GRA wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:26 pm
As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade
You really do live in a world devoid of inconvenient facts. As I told you above, Tesla offered 72/80 Amp OBC 5 years ago, and now the max is 48 Amps.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

cwerdna
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:20 pm

Yep. Although it's possible Tesla could swing in the other direction again.

But, commensurate w/Tesla's 48 amp OBC max in the US for years (looks like it happened Nov 2018: https://electrek.co/2018/11/10/tesla-mo ... e-changes/), their gen 3 (current gen) wall connector is also only 48 amp max output:
https://www.tesla.com/support/installat ... -connector
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... Manual.pdf

Gen 1 and 2 could do 80 amp max output. We had gen 1's at work (two different revs) which all got replaced by gen 2's. And yes, we had some 72 amp and 80 amp OBC older Teslas (pre-3 and pre-Y).
Last edited by cwerdna on Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GRA
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:41 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:06 pm
GRA wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:26 pm
As BEV ranges continue to increase I expect the increase in OBC max. rates will continue to march in step, exactly as they've done for the past decade
You really do live in a world devoid of inconvenient facts. As I told you above, Tesla offered 72/80 Amp OBC 5 years ago, and now the max is 48 Amps.

I'm aware of it, and so far they're unique. Now that the competition is increasingly offering 80A OBCs, I won't be surprised if Tesla does so again. I expect Rivian will need to do so when they introduce the 400 mile truck.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:17 pm

GRA wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:41 pm
Now that the competition is increasingly offering 80A OBCs, I won't be surprised if Tesla does so again.
Who ? Which EVs ?

Have you built your delusion on the PR of the Ford 150 EV vapor-truck ?

Amusing irony that you spend so much time railing against 'elite' Tesla but expect $100k Ford toys sold to a few wannabe cowboys in MacMansions to set the industry standard
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. Cal
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr @28k miles. 10/21: 53.4 Ahr @ 40k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018. Sold 11/2021, awaiting Tesla Model Y

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