LeafyTexan
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jul 2015

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:45 am

cwerdna wrote:
LeafyTexan wrote:I joined the site because I am currently going through the battery issue and hoping to appeal based on the 8yr warranty. I found the 2012 Leaf warranty booklet which does clearly state 96months/100,000 miles. It does state an exception to this warranty would be a gradual loss of battery capacity. We purchased our used 2012 Leaf in July of 2015 with 12 bars, and today we are at 8 bars/63% SOH and I don't feel this is gradual. Does anyone have experience fighting this battle? I'm still doing a ton of Googling...

Link to the booklet: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/images ... ooklet.pdf
Yours is very likely gradual as opposed to sudden.

'11 and '12 Leaf never came with any capacity warranty until http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192, which apparently came about due to the Klee class action settlement.

You are way past the 5 year/60K capacity warranty. When there was no capacity warranty and Leaf had been out for 21 months, we already had a 4 bar loser (Blue494) at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040. They weren't even covered by the 8 year/100K battery defects warranty. Also, before the capacity warranty and when there was the defects warranty, Nissan put up this video to clarify: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ. (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=9694 has some historical info.)

Where did the car reside before? A '12 in July 2015 with 12 bars sounds semi-unlikely unless it resided in a mild climate. The '11s and '12 had lousy batteries. It's possible it had fewer capacity bars and was reset (like http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11 ... -read.html and http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=489807#p489807). So, it reflected an inflated value and it took a few months for the car to relearn the true capacity and then some more time to lose more capacity. If it was in Texas the whole time and the battery wasn't changed, then it was definitely reset.

If you bought it new and you suddenly went from 0 bars lost to 4 within a few months or the car won't charge, the battery won't propel the vehicle at highway speeds, wildly fluctuating fuel bars, sudden turtle despite having many fuel bars or you had range collapse due to a bad cell (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21700), you could get a repair under the 8 year/100K defects warranty.

Of course, the OP never returned to respond. :roll:
The car lived in CO and only had 11,000 miles on it. I'm bummed as I tend to keep cars a long time and was hoping to do the same with this one.

cwerdna
Posts: 9801
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:50 am

LeafyTexan wrote: The car lived in CO and only had 11,000 miles on it. I'm bummed as I tend to keep cars a long time and was hoping to do the same with this one.
Ok. That's a mild climate. Did you track the dates at which you lost each capacity bar?

I doubt it was from 12 to 8 within a few months, unless it was reset. Even it if were, you might not have any recourse. Resets are like rolling back an odometer. About the only legitimate reason to reset is if the battery pack is changed.

Leafs built before 4/2013 frankly had crappy batteries in warmer climates. Unfortunately, the electricvehiclewiki has been rearranged very recently and things are messed up. The battery capacity loss link from http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki ... ture_Gauge now points is dead. https://web.archive.org/web/20180815112 ... acity_Loss was an old copy and people stopped being diligent about updating/adding entries there. It's not been uncommon for w/Leafs built before 4/2013 that always resided in TX to report losing 4 bars before the 5 year/60K capacity warranty expires. There are probably a bunch in http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... ilit=texas. I found http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 33#p432733 who was at 7 bars on his '11 by Aug 2015. His replacement was the best so far "lizard" battery (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 8&p=374490) aka "hot battery".

Even the better batteries that were in 4/2013 build month cars thru model year '14 are no match for hot climates. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 95#p473995. My used '13 Leaf that was previously serviced by the previous driver in Santa Clara, CA and also built 5/2013. It lost its 1st bar in Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p511915. I still have 11 bars now at nearly 60K miles. My SOH is fluctuating around 83.xx to 84.xx% or so, lately.

BTW, we had no idea those batteries were better. Nissan never announced anything or acknowledged any differences. When I bought my used '13 in July 2015, I assumed the batteries were just as good/bad as before. It was only later that it was discovered that they seem better. Leftie coined the term "Wolf pack" for them. :)
Last edited by cwerdna on Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeafyTexan
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jul 2015

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:15 am

cwerdna wrote:
LeafyTexan wrote: The car lived in CO and only had 11,000 miles on it. I'm bummed as I tend to keep cars a long time and was hoping to do the same with this one.
Ok. That's a mild climate. Did you track the dates at which you lost each capacity bar?

I doubt it was from 12 to 8 within a few months, unless it was reset. The Leafs built before 4/2013 frankly had crappy batteries in warmer climates. Unfortunately, the electricvehiclewiki has been rearranged very recently and things are messed up. The battery capacity loss link from http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki ... ture_Gauge now points is dead. https://web.archive.org/web/20180815112 ... acity_Loss was an old copy and people stopped being diligent about updating/adding entries there.

Even the better batteries that were in 4/2013 build month cars thru model year '14 are no match for hot climates. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 95#p473995. My '13 Leaf that was previously serviced in Santa Clara, CA and also built 5/2013 lost its 1st bar in Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p511915. I still 11 bars now at nearly 60K miles. My SOH is fluctuating around 83.xx to 84.xx% or so, lately.

BTW, we had no idea those batteries were better. Nissan never announced anything or acknowledged any differences. When I bought my used '13 in July 2015, I assumed the batteries were just as good/bad as before. It was only later that it was discovered that they seem better. Leftie coined the term "Wolf pack" for them. :)
I took a picture when I lost the first bar. Still looking around to see if I have pictures of the other lost bars but probably not. I bought the car July of 2015 from Carmax. August of 2016 I lost the first bar at a little under 24,000 miles. We went into the purchase blind without researching the Leafs any so thats on us. I really love the car and was hoping to get more life out of it. I cant use it for anything other than my short commute and I'm afraid how that will go now that its getting colder.

cwerdna
Posts: 9801
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:19 am

LeafyTexan wrote: I took a picture when I lost the first bar. Still looking around to see if I have pictures of the other lost bars but probably not. I bought the car July of 2015 from Carmax. August of 2016 I lost the first bar at a little under 24,000 miles. We went into the purchase blind without researching the Leafs any so thats on us. I really love the car and was hoping to get more life out of it. I cant use it for anything other than my short commute and I'm afraid how that will go now that its getting colder.
That's not sudden capacity loss then.

And, it's probably not a reset victim either. The relearning is faster than that. Look at the timeline of http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11 ... -read.html and http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12 ... olved.html. Went from "12" bars to 9 bars from July 2014 to November 2014. By Dec 3rd, it was down to 8 bars. The car previously was already a 3 bar loser as of 11/19/2013 from having resided in So Cal. Irvine, CA is SE of LA. Unknown when the reset happened. Luckily, the 5 year/60K capacity warranty hadn't expired yet and Nissan was installing "lizard" batteries as replacements.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dot4f
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:40 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 410724

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:08 pm

This is somewhat clear as mud.

Car: 2013 Leaf, 90K Miles. Phoenix, AZ (hot).
Battery: 6 bars, and about a 35 mile range.


Is this considered gradual or normal?
How low before "degradation" or "capacity loss" is considered a warranty-able claim under the 8yr/100K coverage?
If I get down to 3 bars, and 17.5 miles range -- is that bad enough?
How about 1 bar, and 5.8 miles?

I have a feeling there must be a point where there would be a valid warranty claim, under the 8yr/100K coverage, that is not based on voltage, ability to reach speed, unable to move whatsoever, etc, but rather based on ability to drive a reasonable distance.

If you had range that was so low the car could only move a block before dying, and you dropped it off at the dealer, they'd likely have trouble moving the car around their lot. It would be difficult to classify that battery is actually "functional" at that point and just experiencing normal & gradual "degradation".

Short question, per the warranty booklet:https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf
LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty covers any repairs needed to correct defects
in materials or workmanship
subject to the exclusions listed under the heading WHAT IS NOT
COVERED. This warranty period is 96 months or
100,000 miles, whichever comes first.
At what point is a Leaf considered to have a "defect in materials or workmanship"?
Is it considered a "defect" that a battery "designed to last 10 years" does not in AZ heat?
Is it considered a design defect to not have a liquid cooled system fitted? Would Nissan acknowledge this is actually a workmanship issue (their engineering / marketing / business) team failure?

I get it, Nissan doesn't want to have a boat load of claims, and they will do whatever is necessary to weasel out of supporting customers, but this has, and will severely damage their future reputation and ability to market & sell electric vehicles, irrespective of "improvements" they claim they have made. https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-l ... t-program/ (that didn't actually pan out as an improvement). They are not the only game in town anymore.

A quick look on Craigslist in Phoenix, AZ and you'll very very often find Leafs under 100K, and under 8 Years that have significant (>50% capacity loss.

Bottom line: Has anyone had success getting a battery replacement / repair under the 8yr/100K, due significant loss of range? If so, how?

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:49 pm

Inability of the battery to deliver 80 kW for a short time should be considered a defect since that is the rated motor power. A few weak cells may set diagnostic trouble codes (we don't know for sure). If so, that may qualify as a defect. There is a cell voltage test outlined in the service manual, but failure under that test is subjective because it depends upon the state of charge when the test is performed. Based upon the cell voltage graph in Leaf Spy, my 2015 has several weak cells which limit the ability of the battery pack to store energy. The weak cells reach maximum voltage while charging before the remaining cells are fully charged. More important, the weak cells reach minimum voltage during discharge while there is a lot of energy still stored in the remaining cells so the car shuts down prematurely. I am hopeful, but not optimistic, that the weak cells will fail completely before the odometer reaches 100,000 miles (presently at 80,537 while charging at a DCQC this evening).

Edited to add: Regarding your bottom line--there have been a few defective cell replacements reported on the forum, but I am not aware of any complete pack replacements under the 8-year, 100,000-mile defect warranty.
Last edited by GerryAZ on Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

cwerdna
Posts: 9801
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:05 pm

dot4f wrote:This is somewhat clear as mud.

Car: 2013 Leaf, 90K Miles. Phoenix, AZ (hot).
Battery: 6 bars, and about a 35 mile range.

Is this considered gradual or normal?
How low before "degradation" or "capacity loss" is considered a warranty-able claim under the 8yr/100K coverage?
If I get down to 3 bars, and 17.5 miles range -- is that bad enough?
How about 1 bar, and 5.8 miles?
...
Bottom line: Has anyone had success getting a battery replacement / repair under the 8yr/100K, due significant loss of range? If so, how?
Sounds gradual to me. I posted about an 8 bar loser I saw for sale and a 9 bar loser I saw posted on FB.

Were you always the original owner? Shouldn't the original battery have hit 8 bars before the 5 year/60K mile capacity warranty expired and thus have been replaced? Is this the replacement? The guy at viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 w/the same build month as me in Phoenix hit 8 bars on his 5/2013 built '13 in late 2016. Apparently, I already pointed to him before in this thiread.

I'm still at 11 bars and Leaf Spy SOH around 81.xx to 83.xx% in a much cooler climate.

Did you watch the video at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=538854#p538854 before there was any capacity warranty?

I'm not sure how you're coming up with your mileage figures. A 1 bar car should have probably 16 miles of range (73 * 0.225). See battery capacity behavior table at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/.

For "bottom line": I can't think of any cases.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dot4f
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:40 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2019
Leaf Number: 410724

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:09 pm

cwerdna, I am not an owner at all :) I am considering buying a used Leaf. I want to know what I am getting into, before I get into it.
Since so many Leafs were sold here, and since there are long term range / capacity issues, it seems as if the values are deeply depressed.

It seems as if the Kia Soul EV has similar battery capacity issues in Phoenix, however it would appear Kia has done the right thing with warranty claims and is significantly more forgiving and generous with their coverage (10yr / 100K miles, transferable, including degradation below 70%).

It's a shame Nissan has taken this stance. This type of consumer sentiment doesn't go away easily (think Subaru & head gasket issues, or some Honda's and automatic transmission failures) - people hold a grudge well after a issue is fixed when manufactures consistently ignore, fail to repair, pretend it doesn't exist, etc.

When the Leaf was one of the few EV players, they could get away with treating customers like this, but they are not anymore, and I have a feeling the handling of these issues will have a long lasting impact for Nissan's EV sales as a whole. Time will tell I guess.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13419
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:46 pm

If you haven't read this yet, please do so.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 2&p=538030
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: New battery replacement under warranty 8yr/100k

Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:00 pm

dot4f wrote:cwerdna, I am not an owner at all :) I am considering buying a used Leaf. I want to know what I am getting into, before I get into it.
Since so many Leafs were sold here, and since there are long term range / capacity issues, it seems as if the values are deeply depressed.

It seems as if the Kia Soul EV has similar battery capacity issues in Phoenix, however it would appear Kia has done the right thing with warranty claims and is significantly more forgiving and generous with their coverage (10yr / 100K miles, transferable, including degradation below 70%).

It's a shame Nissan has taken this stance. This type of consumer sentiment doesn't go away easily (think Subaru & head gasket issues, or some Honda's and automatic transmission failures) - people hold a grudge well after a issue is fixed when manufactures consistently ignore, fail to repair, pretend it doesn't exist, etc.

When the Leaf was one of the few EV players, they could get away with treating customers like this, but they are not anymore, and I have a feeling the handling of these issues will have a long lasting impact for Nissan's EV sales as a whole. Time will tell I guess.
Just to be clear, Kia never sold the Soul EV here (although a few were imported from California). They still do not sell or support EVs here (I stopped at a Phoenix area dealer yesterday intending to look at the new models). They do offer plug-in hybrids now, at least. In my mind, Nissan and Tesla get kudos for selling EVs nationwide when the other manufacturers concentrate on CA and other CARB states.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

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