danrjones
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:30 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:41 pm
It'll be interesting to see when danrjones loses a bar. Seems like his part of CA is pretty hot, judging by Google search for ridgecrest weather and ridgecrest average temperatures.
I'm hoping not to loose one but I certainly won't keep it a secret. Some here feel heat doesn't matter anyway. Parts of Phienix are hotter than us but that's about it. Gets toasty here. And others have had their SOH go up.

I have my annual battery check Friday. That involves a long drive and a full dc fast charge to get home. I'm curious to see how much battery it takes compared to 6 months ago.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:44 am

Has anyone seen (link would be helpful) a 40 battery lose a bar yet? I don't know of any yet.

Certainly in 2011-12 cars, by late year 2 (so 2013) we had many cars losing bars. For the 2013 model year by 2015-2016 we started getting cases.
2019 S Plus (98.6% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.6% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:14 pm

I just got back from my dealer and my battery check and a few other items. Just about 92 freeway miles each way.
I had been hoping to also use it as a check on my actual degradation against ABRP but for whatever reason it did not match up very well this time.

As to the dealer visit -> Battery check said "Very high and good" for both of the two scores, as well as full health bars. They rotated my tires. The ordered a bracket under warranty to adjust my bumper. I complained about Fast Charge speeds (Rapid gate) just as I did last time and asked for a software BMS update, and they said there were no BMS codes present and blamed the fact it charged slower on "my aftermarket OBD2 dongle" somehow interfering with DC Fast charge speeds - and they completely ignored the fact the battery was hot. So I'll have to complain again next visit but remember to remove the dongle. The whole experience took 4.5 hours. My appointment was at 8:45 and when I gave him the keys he said it would take all day. I told him we were waiting and he said there were twenty others in front of us first, but he would go as fast as he could. I think this falls under a Seinfeld example of they know how to take an appointment but not keep an appointment. (I think it was reservation but close enough example). The only good side of this whole thing was my bill, $20. They did not charge for the battery test. Still, this particular Nissan dealer I cannot recommend.

As to the battery degradation and my drive, maybe some interesting data there?

So this AM I had my car ready for the drive, charged up to 100% on the dash. LeafSpy had me at 99.1% and 403.70 V. SOH 89.85%, Ahr 103.72, Hx 108.82, and battery Temp at 92.2 F max. Arrived at the dealer with the Dash saying 19% and LeafSpy readings of 29.5% with Temp at 104.7 F max. Car said I averaged 3.5 miles / kWhr, which seems decent at 70 mphr. Charged for 37 minutes at a Honda dealer next door for a total of 15.97 kWh before my appointment. My starting rate was 27 kW, so way below 50, and it was around 20 kW when I unplugged. I unplugged with a LeafSpy reading of 72.5% and battery temp max of 120.5 F. Practically 5 hours later after Nissan farted around.... temps were at 115.3 F max. Charged some more while getting a late lunch for 20 minutes and added 7.51 kWh. LeafSpy after that charge was at 87.9% with temps at 118.9 F max. Drove home part way and tested an EA charger for 10 minutes. Did not check LeafSpy after that but I know EA says I charged 3.93 kWh and I noted the car would only take 19 kW. Got home and my final trip LeafSpy readings were 32.1% with an AHr of 103.71, SOH of 89.84%, 345.23V, Hx of 108.64%, and Temp of 123.3 F max.

So I'm curious if anyone has anything this data means to them? It did not really match ABRP either direction so degradation is difficult to access. I'm going back through my phone to find the data from my trip 6 months ago, but I recall arriving at thee dealer with LOWER SOC by about 5% (14% on dash versus 19% this time), so that one piece of data is opposite expected, and maybe does not tell me much about degradation. Who knows what was different. HX appears to actually have dropped during the day.

Two things I do know from today is that the battery was hot and kept getting hotter. And my Nissan has lousy service.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

danrjones
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:26 am

So after my last 3 month adjustment - which was tiny - the daily or semi-daily adjustment have not slowed down, if anything, they have sped up. This AM I was at:

AHr: 103.57
SOH: 89.72%
Hx: 108.69%

Just under 6400 miles.

I attempted to do a actual capacity test last week. I charged to full, then attempted to drain the battery down as low as I could go and see how many in-town miles I would get. But I needed my car for work so I had to charge it back up a bit last night. I got down to 5% yesterday - which in LeafSpy was still about 15%, a lot of battery seemed to be hidden. I was at 126 miles. I'd have to add up my efficiency for every drive but I would guess I was around 4 to 4.2 miles per kWh overall for the period. That means I was able to use somewhere around 30 to 31 kWh worth of battery.

Some quick math: 126/4.1 = 30.73 kWh. So this is what I used.
So if I was really at 5%, then its total captivity should be 30.73/0.95 = 32.3 kWh usable.
But if leaf spy is right, then usable (?) is 30.72/0.85 = 36.14 kWh

So does leafspy show actual usable capacity or does that 15% include the reserve Nissan will not let you use?

I thought I had heard the usable portion of the pack was around 36 of 40? If that's correct, then my capacity COULD (?) be 32.3/36 = 0.89 x 100 = 89% or 11% loss. On the other hand, if that 15% was actually all usable, than my degradation is basically zero.

Oddly the 89% calculated almost exactly matches leafspy SOH.

Thoughts? Comments? Math Errors?
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:24 am

Personally, I find LeafSpy to be most accurate in terms of what the car has in the tank.

I have driven many miles with the GOM at 0 or --- and 1%. Last summer I would not have had the confidence to do the 240 mile distance on a charge (on the highway) without the confidence of knowing I had that additional reserve.
2019 S Plus (98.6% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.6% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:55 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:24 am
Personally, I find LeafSpy to be most accurate in terms of what the car has in the tank.

I have driven many miles with the GOM at 0 or --- and 1%. Last summer I would not have had the confidence to do the 240 mile distance on a charge (on the highway) without the confidence of knowing I had that additional reserve.
Well, for what its worth, I found on the WWW a leafspy screenshot of an empty 40 pack and it showed a SOC of right around 10%.

So if that is true, that means I was at 5% usable per leaf spy, and my math would be correct. Depending on my exact efficiency puts the degradation at 11% plus or minus.

Does anyone have a leafpy reading for SOC at zero usable range?
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am

the ongoing debate on the 62kW discussion is whether the SOH shown is true battery capacity, or capacity given to the user. There are these quarterly updates on the BMS which systematically cut down the SOH by a percent or two every quarter after 6 months until the car is in the low 90%s. It then goes into flat to gradual decline.

One belief is that Nissan starts with a 3-4% buffer on the battery (say 2-2.5kW) then after 6 month expands that to about 10% to provide extra buffering on the battery. 2 observations seem to back up the theory. 1. We haven't seen any 2018 Leaf's lose a bar yet. You think you would see a couple ravaged batteries by now. 2. We have seen SOH go up on some cars after the quarterly BMS update (in different seasons, so outside temp doesn't seem to matter). We also have the outlier case of a 2019 Arizona battery, with a near 100F resting temperature with reasonable miles, and a higher SOH than those of use in more northern climates keeping our cars at ideal conditions nearly year round.

So long story short we are clueless, except that the BMS is doing more tinkering around than in previous generations of the car.
2019 S Plus (98.6% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.6% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

lorenfb
Posts: 2441
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:22 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am
So long story short we are clueless,
Without more than a few years of data, that's a good summary!
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

danrjones
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:26 pm

Well, all I can go on is the data I have. Here is the web photo of the supposedly empty 40 kWh Leaf on leaf spy.

Leaf spy shows 9.8% remaining on empty - so I think given the numbers I had, that's interesting.
My daily or semi-daily correction certainly has increased since it got warm.
Until I can prove otherwise, I'm going to assume I do indeed have a bit over 10% degradation.


Image
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

cwerdna
Posts: 10788
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:32 pm

Sorry if I'm late with the post but https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/26/20 ... le-update/ from Jan 26, 2020 said
Using an OBD-II Bluetooth dongle and the LeafSpy Pro app, the battery state of health is 86.8%.
...
Given that this car has been in the desert Southwest for nearly all of its life, those numbers are actually not that bad. About half of these miles were in the Phoenix, Arizona metro area, and the rest in and near El Paso, TX. Fast charging was also used regularly, so there were many times when the battery pack’s temperature got quite hot
IIRC, this person during their Uber/Lyft driving was the one putting ice thru the service plug hole in the rear seat area hump (normally covered by a plastic panel) to bring down battery temps/sensor temps.

edit: Seems right: viewtopic.php?p=546024#p546024.
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:20 am
the ongoing debate on the 62kW discussion is whether the SOH shown is true battery capacity, or capacity given to the user.
...

One belief is that Nissan starts with a 3-4% buffer on the battery (say 2-2.5kW)
You talking about kWh?

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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