SageBrush
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 am

Jollermd wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 am
That tweaking that occurs in the last 30 minutes "balancing" will be lost. Is there data that a Nissan battery degrades faster if you charge to 100%? or is this intuition based on what chemists and tesla says?
The chemistry effect is *very* well described in general; the specific degradation rates are a complex interaction that also is affected by temperature and duration at the high SoC. It is also true that "100%" is set by the manufacturer.

The 'balancing' is true in theory but it is more a folk tale in practice if you routinely charge to ~ 85% and have a good pack. You can always charge to 100% SoC a couple times a year if it lets you sleep better. I can tell you that my 7 year old LEAF has charged past 80% perhaps a dozen times in the past 4 years and the cells are superbly balanced according to LeafSpy at 7 - 10 mV max delta at low SoC. Do yourself a favor and get ahold of LeafSpy and an OBDII dongle. That way you will not have to guess if the cells are unbalanced.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:41 am

Sorry for not mentioning the charge timer option - it was late for me and I was tired. Still, getting the car to stop charging by itself before 100% can be a little challenging, so setting the timer for a time well after departure is easier. If you do want the car to stop on its own, be sure to disable the 'Full Charge Priority' in the charge timer menu, and don't be too surprised if the car still balks at ending the charge early. This is especially true of the Leaf S.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Jollermd
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:47 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2018
Location: Naperville illinois

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:51 am

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:31 am
Jollermd wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 am
That tweaking that occurs in the last 30 minutes "balancing" will be lost. Is there data that a Nissan battery degrades faster if you charge to 100%? or is this intuition based on what chemists and tesla says?
The chemistry effect is *very* well described in general; the specific degradation rates are a complex interaction that also is affected by temperature and duration at the high SoC. It is also true that "100%" is set by the manufacturer.
I love that this forum is so alive.

your answer is fair...… but as you said there are probably a few Kwh hidden that may not be held back to not actually reach 100%;


And the only way we would really know the effects of 100% charge is to look at the degradation of a car like mine and a similar car in Illinois used in a similar fashion but charged only to 80%, and better yet a few cars and then compare averages. it would be a nice experiment.
2018 leaf sl 40kw

LeftieBiker
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Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:55 am

The "Lizard" chemistry used in the 2015 Leaf was a bit more tolerant of being charged to 100% frequently, but we have still seen some from warmer climates that clearly suffered from sitting around at 100% (indicated) charge. The few percent reserved by Nissan doesn't seem to be enough to prevent degradation in hotter weather.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2335
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:55 am

The 3 Leafs we have (or have had) here in Skokie (not so far away) have held up pretty well.

Our climate here is pretty good for the Leaf. My 2013 Lost a bar early in its 6th year, but that was well within my expectations. My 2 2019 Plus models are both doing very well so far. It looks like the 40s are holding up pretty well across geographies, though we are only 3 years from the earliest ones hitting the road.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

SageBrush
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:44 pm

Jollermd wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:51 am
And the only way
I approach this question differently.
I *know* the variables that degrade batteries at a faster clip, albeit not the EXACT degradation rates.

So I minimize those things if I can, while operating the car in a manner that meets my use case and does not turn the car into a chore. As one example from my household:

Our LEAF is almost never used for more than 30 miles between charges at home and our model has a choice of charging to 80% SoC so my wife who is the main driver and user of the car has an ingrained habit of plugging in the car after every drive, and the car is set to charge to 80% SoC. I program the timer to finish charging at 6am in the summer, and to not delay charging in the winter.

You will have to find what works for you. Just be aware than high_SoC * duration * high_battery_temp is a recipe for an unhappy LEAF battery. If you own the LEAF and would like to optimize its value then see what you can do about mitigating those negative variables. Some people like the idea of gaming (or trying to game) the battery by asking questions like 'what is the most important variable' ? The most honest answer (perhaps outside of Nissan, and they are not talking) is that no one is sure but the combination of all three is bad. I think most owners who are willing to put some effort and thought into mitigation find it more practical to mitigate each variable somewhat rather than ignore one variable completely and go whole hog on another. I also suspect that approach is less effective.

This does not have to be rocket science or a lifetime hobby. Being reasonable and moderate goes a long way:
Avoid 100% SoC unless there is a good reason
Avoid letting the battery SoC sit at high SoC (over 90%) unless there is a good reason
Avoid letting the battery cook at high temps. This is the problem child with the TMS-less LEAF and the least amenable to owner intervention. If you live in a cool climate -- great. In the winter -- great. For summers I do four things:

1. I let the battery cool off for as long as practical before I charge.
2. I avoid DC fast charging if at all possible
3. I do not park in closed spaces like unventilated garages
4. I avoid parking on hot asphalt. At home the car is in the shade, and away from home we seek out shaded asphalt.

Good luck !
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jmurtagh13
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:54 am
Delivery Date: 10 Mar 2018
Leaf Number: 300844
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:46 am

Image

2 years 8 months, 23,543 miles. .05% drop for this last month, 2.27% for the last 12 months.
2018 Leaf March 10, 2018
34 months, 24,732 miles
SOH 88.84

SageBrush
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:24 am

Jollermd wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:51 am
I love that this forum is so alive.
Heh. It has been many seasons since novel information was discussed, let alone presented here.
Nowadays the few people who remain with a technical bent answer the same questions over and over again for people unable or unwilling to search.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16107
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:28 am

Don't feel that you have to put yourself out, Sagebrush.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:37 am

jmurtagh13 wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:46 am
I just follow the Ahr readings

You started at 115 Ahr
By 11/2019 you had dropped to 106.04
By 11/2020 you had dropped to 101.43

So the battery has lost
1 - 101.43/115 of its capacity since you brought it home
and
1 - 101.43/106.04 of its capacity in the past year.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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