cwerdna
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Re: Rapidgate fixed

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:18 pm

SageBrush wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:rumor has it RapidGate fix for European market only because North American Market did not complain enough.
The US won't be receiving the European fix, mainly because Nissan has the charging data for all of the US fleet, and found that only a very small minority of 2018 cars that are part of the affected universe fast charge more than once a day, and they also have all of the service information for the same universe, and none to just a few customers ever brought their cars in for service presenting the charging slowdown after multiple charges as an issue. The logic is why spend time, effort and expense to fix something that does not seem to be broken.
If that was the "logic" they would issue a TSB, aka voluntary fix.

That is the excuse. I'll bet the reason is that the fix in non-cool climates is a BAD IDEA
Agree with Sage on this.

I suspect Nissan looked at not only the DC FC data (they'd only know for cars with TCUs and maybe have some data on S trims that come in for service), the lack of awareness of "rapidgate", the apparent lack of complaints (lots of people won't waste their time to complain to dealers or EV customer service if there's no fix and they're told "that's the way it is") but also the cost of applying the update and the resulting side effect (battery capacity warranty) costs due to much (?) of the US having a warmer climate that Europe.

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OrientExpress
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Re: Rapidgate fixed

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:10 pm

I think what you are saying is that the cost of increased battery warranty claims, and more folks being pissed that Nissan changed something that would have a detrimental affect on the car outweighs a handful of folks that believe they are entitled to this change.

Interesting theory.

Issuing TSBs is an involved and costly process, and since the issue is not safety or reliability related, and Nissan is upfront in saying the way the car charges is intentional to maximize the life of the battery, I don’t see them changing anything.
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cwerdna
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Re: Rapidgate fixed

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:09 pm

OrientExpress wrote:I think what you are saying is that the cost of increased battery warranty claims, and more folks being pissed that Nissan changed something that would have a detrimental affect on the car outweighs a handful of folks that believe they are entitled to this change.

Interesting theory.
Yeah. That's most of my hypothesis.

It's possible that allowing for increased DC FCing rate might push more batteries into reaching 8 bars before the 8 year/100K capacity warranty expires in the US and that effect might be more widespread in the US than Europe --> increased Nissan warranty costs. That'd be a reason for Nissan to say no in the US.

And, most US '18+ Leafers may be unaware of rapid gate, hence the low complaints. And, again, even those that do know not might not bother spending/wasting their time (prior to this update news) complaining to Nissan only to be told this is "by design" (what what earlier Nissan statements basically said). I would've been in this boat if I had an '18. I suspect Nissan will see a spike in complaints :) as word spreads.

And, those who complained to just dealer might've also gotten a "by design" response that never bubbled its way up to Nissan corporate.

Yeah, you're right about the cost. At minimum, there's dealer tech labor time that would need to be reimbursed by Nissan corporate. There'd be other ancillary costs like writing and localizing the TSB, training EV helpline staff and validating the change (presumably that's all done).

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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Rapidgate fixed

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:04 am

This should be nothing more than a service bulletin. If you have an issue, bring it in. If you don't or simply don't care enough about it, then don't worry about it.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 25,185 miles SOH 92.23%
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TexasLeaf
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Re: Rapidgate fixed in Europe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:17 pm

Limon-Tea Leaf post a video of James' #Rapidgate fix results, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4TsP3MN7ug. We need to get this update for our 2018 Leafs here in the USA. I called Nissan Consumer Affairs to make sure they had my complaints about the battery overheating and slow charging documented.

Consumer Affairs representative I talked to found the maintenance report that was submitted less than a month after I picked up the car but the maintenance report only indicated that the car wouldn't go faster than 65 mph (because it went into turtle mode on high battery temperature). The maintenance report basically brushed off my compliant. When I tried to complain that I had been planning to drive the car up to Colorado regularly when I bought the car and that the battery overheating and the slow charging was a hardship, the Consumer Affairs representative tried to say that it my fault that I bought a car that didn't live up to Nissan's published documentation of Leaf battery charging performance (buyer beware).

The Consumer Affairs rep said that Nissan does not track telemetry, so they don't know about all the times I had to suffer from slow charging. I have many of my slow charging sessions documented. I need to figure out how to start sending ALL that slow charging data to Nissan so that they can see how much trouble, time and money the slow charging is causing me.

Remember that the reason Nissan has stated that the #Rapidgate fix is not available in the USA is because people in the USA have not been complaining about slow charging caused by batter overheating, https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-rapid ... ix-europe/. If we are going to get the #Rapidgate fix in the USA then ALL OF US in the USA that have a 2018 Leaf (or a 40 kWh battery pack) need to call or email Nissan EVERY TIME we experience slow charging caused by high battery temperatures. The Nissan Consumer Affairs phone number is 800-647-7261, option 7.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Rapidgate fixed

Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:09 pm

cwerdna wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:I think what you are saying is that the cost of increased battery warranty claims, and more folks being pissed that Nissan changed something that would have a detrimental affect on the car outweighs a handful of folks that believe they are entitled to this change.

Interesting theory.
Yeah. That's most of my hypothesis.

It's possible that allowing for increased DC FCing rate might push more batteries into reaching 8 bars before the 8 year/100K capacity warranty expires in the US and that effect might be more widespread in the US than Europe --> increased Nissan warranty costs. That'd be a reason for Nissan to say no in the US.

And, most US '18+ Leafers may be unaware of rapid gate, hence the low complaints. And, again, even those that do know not might not bother spending/wasting their time (prior to this update news) complaining to Nissan only to be told this is "by design" (what what earlier Nissan statements basically said). I would've been in this boat if I had an '18. I suspect Nissan will see a spike in complaints :) as word spreads.

And, those who complained to just dealer might've also gotten a "by design" response that never bubbled its way up to Nissan corporate.

Yeah, you're right about the cost. At minimum, there's dealer tech labor time that would need to be reimbursed by Nissan corporate. There'd be other ancillary costs like writing and localizing the TSB, training EV helpline staff and validating the change (presumably that's all done).

Unaware? Yes. Low complaints? Nooooo

Survey posts on Facebook from last Summer. Tons of complaints but the focus was pushed away from RapidGate by "us"

Every time someone complained of not getting the charge they were expecting they were bombarded by responses about 25 KW chargers or 40 KW chargers, etc without addressing the OP's concern at all. So the OP doesn't get an answer, is overwhelmed by unrelated data and the issue dies.

I responded time and time again that RapidGate is real but by then there was so much noise on the thread that I doubt much of the message got thru.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 25,185 miles SOH 92.23%
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OrientExpress
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Rapidgate and US

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Unaware? Yes. Low complaints? Nooooo

Survey posts on Facebook from last Summer. Tons of complaints but the focus was pushed away from RapidGate by "us"
There are abut 7800-8000 2019 LEAFs that were produced in the US that have the "A" rev BMS software with the more conservative quick charging profile that is slower by design.

10-15 vocal individuals on social media expressing their outrage is hardly a "ton" of the affected universe. Even if it was 50, that's less than 1% that feel that they are inconvenienced by spending a half an hour to an hour charging in a multiple charge session day.
Would they like to see the charging go faster? Of course they would, but at the end of the day, it's just not that big of a deal for the majority of owners. Calling in to Nissan Customer Care? Go for it, but remember, they are just the messenger. And believe me when I say the decision makers at Nissan know all about the global outrage on social media, and that factored into their decision.

This is not a safety issue, and so Nissan is effectively off the regulatory hook. To make it an even steeper hill, none of the few that have been vocal have been able to articulate what the problem is other than occasionally it takes longer than other times to fully recharge. So from a business point of view, it is pretty clear why Nissan has been reluctant to invest in a program, even though it could be done. Lots of things can be done, many aren’t because there is not a compelling argument to do so.

A great example of not having an argument is when Nissan gets service complaints about the car behaving exactly how should. TexasLeaf's story about his car going into reduced power mode when the battery got too hot (which by the way is exactly what the LEAF and every other BEV does when their batteries exceed a heat threshold) is a good example. That sort of indignation is not covered by any warranty, but is good for several eye-rolls by the phone agent on the other side of the call and is felony grounds for a stern dose of RTFM.

So, having tantrums on social media isn't going to work, and complaining to the Nissan customer care about a problem that is only a problem from the owners POV, does not carry much weight. Lawsuit threats will get you cut off immediately (OK sue me MF, <click>).

But what will work is a compelling argument that is both a winner for the you and a winner for Nissan. Essentially it's a dollars and cents issue that needs to be solved. No one has been able to show enough impact to justify the cost, plus it doesn't break anything if it isn't done.

Develop that argument and you're golden. You will have done a great service for the owners of the 8000 LEAFs, and will go down in history as one of the greatest owner-advocates that the LEAF community has ever had.

Thankfully the silver lining from all of this brouhaha is that Nissan did recalibrate the charging profiles as a rolling production change for later '18 and '19 LEAFs, but to expect it to be retrofitted is stretching it.

But quite frankly as an owner of one of the affected LEAFs, which is the car we drive for 98% of our local and long distance travel, I wouldn't mind a faster fast charge, but it's OK with me if nothing is changed if the reason was that it will help keep my cars battery in good shape longer.

I see it as a "nice to have, but my world isn't going to collapse if I don't get it" issue, and it appears that the other 99%+ of the other owners seem to agree.

Peace
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Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14160
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Re: Rapidgate fixed in Europe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:09 pm

Thankfully the silver lining from all of this brouhaha is that Nissan did recalibrate the charging profiles as a rolling production change for later '18 and '19 LEAFs, but to expect it to be retrofitted is stretching it.
You are claiming that later build North American 40 kwh LEAFs have the good QC profile?

Is this fact or speculation?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 25,185 miles SOH 92.23%
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OrientExpress
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Re: Rapidgate fixed in Europe

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:13 pm

It appears that cars made after May have the H revision.
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Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
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TexasLeaf
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 am
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Re: Rapidgate and US

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:18 pm

OrientExpress wrote:There are abut 7800-8000 2019 LEAFs that were produced in the US that have the "A" rev BMS software with the more conservative quick charging profile that is slower by design.

10-15 vocal individuals on social media expressing their outrage is hardly a "ton" of the affected universe. Even if it was 50, that's less than 1% that feel that they are inconvenienced by spending a half an hour to an hour charging in a multiple charge session day.
Would they like to see the charging go faster? Of course they would, but at the end of the day, it's just not that big of a deal for the majority of owners. Calling in to Nissan Customer Care? Go for it, but remember, they are just the messenger. And believe me when I say the decision makers at Nissan know all about the global outrage on social media, and that factored into their decision.

This is not a safety issue, and so Nissan is effectively off the regulatory hook. To make it an even steeper hill, none of the few that have been vocal have been able to articulate what the problem is other than occasionally it takes longer than other times to fully recharge. So from a business point of view, it is pretty clear why Nissan has been reluctant to invest in a program, even though it could be done. Lots of things can be done, many aren’t because there is not a compelling argument to do so.

A great example of not having an argument is when Nissan gets service complaints about the car behaving exactly how should. TexasLeaf's story about his car going into reduced power mode when the battery got too hot (which by the way is exactly what the LEAF and every other BEV does when their batteries exceed a heat threshold) is a good example. That sort of indignation is not covered by any warranty, but is good for several eye-rolls by the phone agent on the other side of the call and is felony grounds for a stern dose of RTFM.

So, having tantrums on social media isn't going to work, and complaining to the Nissan customer care about a problem that is only a problem from the owners POV, does not carry much weight. Lawsuit threats will get you cut off immediately (OK sue me MF, <click>).

But what will work is a compelling argument that is both a winner for the you and a winner for Nissan. Essentially it's a dollars and cents issue that needs to be solved. No one has been able to show enough impact to justify the cost, plus it doesn't break anything if it isn't done.

Develop that argument and you're golden. You will have done a great service for the owners of the 8000 LEAFs, and will go down in history as one of the greatest owner-advocates that the LEAF community has ever had.

Thankfully the silver lining from all of this brouhaha is that Nissan did recalibrate the charging profiles as a rolling production change for later '18 and '19 LEAFs, but to expect it to be retrofitted is stretching it.

But quite frankly as an owner of one of the affected LEAFs, which is the car we drive for 98% of our local and long distance travel, I wouldn't mind a faster fast charge, but it's OK with me if nothing is changed if the reason was that it will help keep my cars battery in good shape longer.

I see it as a "nice to have, but my world isn't going to collapse if I don't get it" issue, and it appears that the other 99%+ of the other owners seem to agree.

Peace
Your eloquent argument does not change the fact that my 2018 Leaf does a VERY poor job of doing the job I bought if for. I bought the car to use on my frequent trips to Colorado and driving my Leaf from Texas to Colorado takes ten charging stops. If the Leaf charged at 45 kW, like the Nissan documentation said it would, then it would take about 10 hours of charging but when the battery gets hot after the first or second charge then the Leaf is only going to charge at 11 kW requiring 40 hours of charging on a 13 hour drive (not to mention the fact that using the Electrify America stations that charge by the minute it could cost me hundreds of dollars more on the round trip).

Making my trips to Colorado 30 hours longer is much more than just a little inconvenience. I feel betrayed by Nissan for not being more forthcoming on fast charging performance. The #RAPIDGate articles didn't start appearing until after I took procession of the car and when I complained about the problem Nissan basically just told me that I was a sucker for buying the car in the first place and to suck-it-up.

Posts like yours inflame me. You act like my pain, suffering and frustration is irrelevant. Just because there are only a few people willing to be vocal about their pain doesn't mean that there are not many, many Leaf owners suffering in silence.

At first when the #Rapidgate stories broke I was in disbelief. Then after I accepted that there was a problem I tired to accept that was just the way the Leaf works and I tried very hard to find ways to mitigate the battery overheating. Now with a fix available but not being provide by Nissan and with people like supporting Nissan's position, I'm starting to wish I had never bought the Leaf.

I read through the lease agreement on my Leaf. The lease documentation states that I can return the car after 12 months. I will have had the Leaf for 12 months next month and I'm seriously considering asking Nissan to take it back.
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