SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:10 am

webeleafowners wrote: Two more Chademo and two CCS stations opened up this week about 30 km away. All are 200 kw.
Do you have a good reference for CHAdeMO at 200 kW at this location?

It can get tricky to figure out how fast a car will charge, as opposed to charger specs which may not even take the cable into account*.
And the media all too often get the physical units mixed up.

So far as I know, CHAdeMO requires a liquid cable to go over 200 Amps. If these stations do not have that cable then they probably peak at about 74 kW on CHAdeMO.

*
A good example of this is some of the "350 kW" CCS chargers. The number is calculated by multiplying the charger output maximums of 350 Amps and 1000 Volts. Of course no car on the road today can take 1000 Volts; and in fact if we exclude one future Porsche everything else is ~ 370 v nominal. So even if the cable can output 350 Amps and the car can take 350 Amps, those chargers peak power is ~ 0.35*370 = 130 kW
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

webeleafowners
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Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:41 am

SageBrush wrote:
webeleafowners wrote: Two more Chademo and two CCS stations opened up this week about 30 km away. All are 200 kw.
Do you have a good reference for CHAdeMO at 200 kW at this location?

It can get tricky to figure out how fast a car will charge, as opposed to charger specs which may not even take the cable into account*.
And the media all too often get their units mixed up.

So far as I know, CHAdeMO requires a liquid cable to go over 200 Amps. If these stations do not have that cable then they probably peak at about 74 kW on CHAdeMO.

*
A good example of this is some of the "350 kW" CCS chargers. The number is calculated by multiplying the charger output maximums of 350 Amps and 1000 Volts. Of course no car on the road today can take 1000 Volts; and in fact if we exclude one future Porsche everything else is ~ 370 v nominal. So even if the cable can output 350 Amps and the car can take 350 Amps, those chargers peak power is ~ 0.35*370 = 130 kW
That’s interesting info. I never realized how they calculated the station rating.

So nope. No good reference other than comments from the site user. I’ll be swinging by there in a week from Friday. I’ll see if I can get a shot of the plate on the charger. It’s on an excellent location. Food, coffee, 30 seconds off the highway and easy entrance back on the highway. It looks to me like they left enough room for two more combo stations.

BC is doing really good with their DCFC buildout. Four of the sites on the route north to Prince George come on line on July 31st.

Kinda cool to see the Chademo adapter out for the model 3 Tesla. Makes a model Y even more attractive for us when we replace the next car in a few years.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:08 am

^^ It has taken me a long time to catch on because the media and manufacturer reports I read are not helpful. It comes down to knowing the voltage and amperage maxima * of each component * in the charging chain. The slowest component determines the fastest power delivery.

In CHAdeMO land it gets really messy.
Japan e.g., has a lot of chargers limited to 50 Amps (not sure about the cable, but the charger is the bottleneck)
The USA is overwhelmingly 100 Amp cables matched with 100 Amp chargers.
I gather that a handful of 200 Amp cables have been deployed. I presume that the charger is not the bottleneck for these locations but the car may be. E.g. my LEAF is limited to 100 Amps so it will continue to charge at its old rate of ~ 40 kW on these upgraded charger/cable installations.

Nowadays the charger is typically over-spec'd so either the cable or the car becomes the power limiter.
The other piece of this to understand has to do with voltage. The charger has been typically rated for 500 volts but the actual power output is dependent on the Amps flowing *and the voltage of the car battery.* In all non-custom EVs on the road today peak power occurs at peak Amps, and ~ 360 - 370 volts at the battery. So:

A '500 volt, 100 Amp, AKA 50 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 100*0.37 = 37 kW peak power
A '500 volt, 200 Amp, AKA 100 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 200*0.37 = 74 kW peak power

---
Which all makes the v3 Supercharger for Tesla a marvel. It can actually output ~ 240 kW when the battery is at ~ 350 volts, so ~ 685 Amps are flowing at that time. Specs that Tesla submitted to the EPA implied a maximum of 525 Amps but in retrospect that was a continuous rating.

--
It is a good idea to take a photo of the specs plate but see if you can sort out the charger from the charger+cable.
The maximum charger voltage does not matter since the car voltage sets charging voltage; the Amps will be informative.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

webeleafowners
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:22 am

SageBrush wrote:^^ It has taken me a long time to catch on because the media and manufacturer reports I read are not informative. It comes down to knowing the voltage and amperage maxima * of each component * in the charging chain. The slowest component determines the fastest power delivery.

In CHAdeMO land it gets really messy.
Japan e.g., has a lot of chargers limited to 50 Amps (not sure about the cable, but the charger is the bottleneck)
The USA is overwhelmingly 100 Amp cables matched with 100 Amp chargers.
I gather that a handful of 200 Amp cables have been deployed. I presume that the charger is not the bottleneck for these locations but the car may be. E.g. my LEAF is limited to 100 Amps so it will continue to charge at its old rate of ~ 40 kW on these upgraded charger/cable installations.

Nowadays the charger is typically over-spec'd so either the cable or the car becomes the power limiter.
The other piece of this to understand has to do with voltage. The charger has been typically rated for 500 volts but the actual power output is dependent on the Amps flowing *and the voltage of the car battery.* In all non-custom EVs on the road today peak power occurs at peak Amps, and ~ 360 - 370 volts at the battery. So:

A '500 volt, 100 Amp, AKA 50 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 100*0.37 = 37 kW peak power
A '500 volt, 200 Amp, AKA 100 kW' charger that is not limited by the cable or car electronics will deliver ~ 200*0.37 = 74 kW peak power

---
Which all makes the v3 Supercharger for Tesla a marvel. It can actually output ~ 240 kW when the battery is at ~ 350 volts, so ~ 685 Amps are flowing at that time. Specs that Tesla submitted to the EPA implied a maximum of 525 Amps but in retrospect that was a continuous rating.
You are definetly well studied up on this stuff. One of the reasons I think we took to EV’s so much is this kind of stuff. Much more interesting than a gas hose.

Thanks for the explanation. Will do on the spec plate and cable pics.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:32 am

webeleafowners wrote:One of the reasons I think we took to EV’s so much is this kind of stuff. Much more interesting than a gas hose.
So true !!
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:48 am

The 200 Amp CHAdeMO cable has turned out to be a problem for EA so they are all running at 100 Amps for now.
The CHAdeMO connectors are certified at 100kW at 200 amps, however we have de-rated those connectors to 50kW. The CHAdeMO connectors will stay de-rated until testing with all vehicles and adaptors are successfully completed.

The intent is to offer 100kW for electric vehicles in the future. As a clarification – all dual-CHAdeMO and CCS chargers are capable of 150kW on the CCS-side and capable of a 100kW on the CHAdeMO-side.

As previously explained the CHAdeMO is de-rated to 50kW. (And that is for ABB, BTC Power, Efacec and Signet). Since the de-rating is done by software, we will enable the 100kW CHAdeMO connectors at new and existing chargers after sufficient testing.
Tesla delayed its Model 3 adapter for CHAdeMO for a long time, and it is now released with a 125 Amp max rating. I doubt the delay was simple coincidence. As for the actual problems -- no one is saying, least of all CHAdeMO. I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:41 am

SageBrush wrote:And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
Source of information?

CHAdeMO chargers have been reliable for the 142 times I've used them for the 2014 LEAF. I also used them in the 2012 LEAF.

You have used CHAdeMO exactly how many times? 0, zero, isn't it?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

gtleaf
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:53 am

I just bought a new Leaf Plus and am not impressed with CHAdeMO. I used an EVgo charger and my car was at 20%. You're limited to a 45 minute session and after that it turned off and my battery was only at 60%. From 20% - 50% it charged at 350V / 100A or 35KW. After 50% it started trickling down and when it turned off it was only charging at 20KW. I have no idea why it starting backing off after 50%, is that normal? The battery temperature looked fine. From this experience, I'd say that CHAdeMO is definitely not a good solution for traveling in a Leaf Plus.

Brian

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Nubo
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:19 am

SageBrush wrote:...I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
What is the typical failure mode of a CHAdeMO station? Is it a fault of the specification or just crappy implementation?
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

WetEV
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:00 am

gtleaf wrote:I just bought a new Leaf Plus and am not impressed with CHAdeMO. I used an EVgo charger and my car was at 20%. You're limited to a 45 minute session and after that it turned off and my battery was only at 60%. From 20% - 50% it charged at 350V / 100A or 35KW. After 50% it started trickling down and when it turned off it was only charging at 20KW. I have no idea why it starting backing off after 50%, is that normal? The battery temperature looked fine. From this experience, I'd say that CHAdeMO is definitely not a good solution for traveling in a Leaf Plus.

Brian
Not the fault of CHAdeMO.

EVgo (and others) have different chargers with different capabilities. There is a Chargepoint unit near where I used to work that was 20kW maximum. And the nameplate power on any charger isn't the power your car will actually draw. A 50kW charger may provide up to 500V and up to 100A (500V * 100A = 50kW), but your car's battery voltage at 20% charge will be well below 500V. The actual power you might draw would be close to 35kW. (Battery voltage * 100A), I'd expect a little more but not a lot more.

Leaf isn't a great road trip car... Great for a commute, or around town.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
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