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Randy
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:27 pm

Aside from the relative counts between Chademo and CCS, the AFDC website has, in my humble opinion, a flaw in the way that they count stations.

Take this station near where I live in San Diego....

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electrici ... tion/93121

They show 4 Chademo and CCS outlets, but those are the typical ABB stations that have 2 cords and can charge only a single car.

So they have two DC Fast chargers that can charge either flavor, but can still only charge two cars at once. By stating they have 4 outlets, i think they are overstating the count of what is really there...

This would also be true for EA stations.

One being built nearby me has three charger boxes and three dispensers with dual cords. #1 has two CCS 150 kW, #2 has two CCS 150 kW, and #3 has 1 CCS 150 kW and one Chademo 50 kW cord. Do you count that as 5 CCS and 1 Chademo? That isn't really correct since only three cars can charge at once...

SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:31 pm

Nubo wrote:
SageBrush wrote:...I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
What is the typical failure mode of a CHAdeMO station? Is it a fault of the specification or just crappy implementation?
Interesting question -- I don't know.
The EA debacle smells more like a less than robust spec but that is just a guess.
And the high failure rate could be manufacturer related.

Or just go for all three :lol:
If CHAdeMO was a successful protocol money would probably fix these issues but since it is in ~ caretaker mode problems fester, stations remain out of commission indefinitely, and progress is shoddy.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:46 pm

Randy wrote:Aside from the relative counts between Chademo and CCS, the AFDC website has, in my humble opinion, a fatal flaw in the way that they count stations.

Take this station near where I live in San Diego....

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electrici ... tion/93121

They show 4 Chademo and CCS outlets, but those are the typical ABB stations that have 2 cords and can charge only a single car.

So they have two DC Fast chargers that can charge either flavor, but can still only charge two cars at once. By stating they have 4 outlets, i think they are overstating the count of what is really there...

This would also be true for EA stations.

One being built nearby me has three charger boxes and three dispensers with dual cords. #1 has two CCS 150 kW, #2 has two CCS 150 kW, and #3 has 1 CCS 150 kW and one Chademo 50 kW cord. Do you count that as 5 CCS and 1 Chademo? That isn't really correct since only three cars can charge at once...
Good point.
How then do you count CHAdeMO ?
1/2 ?
None ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

gtleaf
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:00 pm

Fair enough, I'm not sure whether it is the Leaf or the EVgo charger that started dialing back the charge rate when the battery was only half full. When you look at Nissan's website, they seem to indicate you could get about 80% charge in about an hour but I don't see that being realistic if I only got about 40% after 45 minutes. I agree though, not a great road trip car if you need to charge it along the way. I drove about 180 miles to my destination so I didn't have to rely on charging to reach my destination. This was more of an experiment, I didn't buy my Leaf thinking it would be a road trip car.

SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:18 pm

gtleaf wrote:Fair enough, I'm not sure whether it is the Leaf or the EVgo charger that started dialing back the charge rate when the battery was only half full. When you look at Nissan's website, they seem to indicate you could get about 80% charge in about an hour but I don't see that being realistic if I only got about 40% after 45 minutes. I agree though, not a great road trip car if you need to charge it along the way. I drove about 180 miles to my destination so I didn't have to rely on charging to reach my destination. This was more of an experiment, I didn't buy my Leaf thinking it would be a road trip car.
All car batteries taper charge as they fill up, although the details differ.

A useful way to compare different cars is to compare C rates:
If the battery is X kWh capacity, then X kW is 1 C

E.g., my Tesla Model 3 can charge at ~ 3C for a short time between 10-20% SoC
Then it charges at 2.5C for the next 20%
At 45% SoC it tapers down to ~ 2C until 55%
By 60% SoC it is charging at 1.5C and the taper continues from then on...

Like so:

Image
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:25 pm

GLeaf

On my Iowa trip last month, I charged from 16% to mid 70's in about 42 minutes at an EA charger (in spite of high battery temps), so I think the Plus is pretty close to advertised if the charger has the power. The EA charger was giving me 53-54 KW, for the main part of the battery charge, then tapered until I took it off at 90% (it has reduced to 20 KW by then).

When the new 150 KW Chademo chargers get installed, I am eager to see whether the Leaf can hit a 100KW peak pull.
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SageBrush
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote: When the new 150 KW Chademo chargers get installed, I am eager to see whether the Leaf can hit a 100KW peak pull.
EA has installed 200 Amp CHAdeMO although it has been derated to 125 Amps for now due to unspecified problems.

At 200 Amps your peak power into the battery would be ~ 72 kW, presuming the car can take it (40 kWh LEAF I'm not sure; 62 kWh LEAF presumably yes .... unless rapid-gate trumps)
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Nubo wrote:
SageBrush wrote:...I'll be delighted if all parties can reach 200 Amps but more incompatibilities cropping up seems more likely. And that is the Achilles's heel of CHAdeMO -- it has not proved to be reliable outside of the certification laboratory.
What is the typical failure mode of a CHAdeMO station? Is it a fault of the specification or just crappy implementation?
As I understand it, the typical failure mode, at least for older stations, is overheating due to clogged air intake filters that weren't serviced regularly. There may be other issues with newer stations.
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gtleaf
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:33 am

It definitely makes sense that the charge would taper off some as the battery fills up, just was surprised to see it go from 35KW down to 20KW after only 50%.

That's good info to know on your Leaf Plus experience, I'm glad to hear it is the charger and not my car. This was a business trip, so I'll see if there are any other CHAdeMO stations in the area I can try the next time I go.

GerryAZ
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Re: Department of Energy - Chademo vs. CCS

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:34 pm

I have been using quick chargers frequently the last couple of years first due to frequent long trips across the Phoenix metro area and now due to battery capacity loss (gradual loss until recently with a few weak cells causing greatly reduced range now). I use both EVgo (combination CHADeMO and CCS) and Blink (old CHADeMO units with 2 cables). Both brands will only charge one car at a time. I prefer the Blink units because they have a bit higher output, don't stop after 30 minutes, and cost less per charge (with memberships in both networks). I have also noticed broken handle latches on the EVgo CCS cables on numerous occasions so I am concerned about the safety/reliability of those connectors. The CHADeMO connectors are heavy duty connectors similar to high-current welding receptacles/plugs while the CCS connectors are just L2 connectors with two additional terminals for DC current. Since LEAF is the only car still available in the USA with CHADeMO connector, I suspect those chargers will gradually fade away so I am starting to consider replacing my 2015 with a longer-range car to eliminate my need to use quick charging.
Gerry
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