DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15450
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:34 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:48 am
I am not sure if its all about EA's decision to marginalize Chademo or Nissan thinking faster charging speeds are needed?
So far Nissan has given no hint of continuing LEAF with CCS. They may yet change their minds but for now it looks to me like a decision based on LEAF peak charging speed and related rapidgate and coldgate issues.

---
I'll make a prediction:
In the same way that you never missed range until you got more,
you do not miss faster charging, until you get more.

---
A few minutes ago I was planning a 366 mile trip from home to Aspen, CO in our Tesla Model 3. One stop, under 10 minutes of charging. It occurred to me that other than curiosity, there was no reason to plan at all. Just go.
Can't say I was ever happy about 50 KW charging or 125 amps, but 200 amp charging was a significant difference. Combined with the range, I was normally leaving with more range than I had planned for. Now, my idea of road tripping is stopping at least every 2 hours and even that is more than I want to go or "can go" frequently so it was all about having stations spaced in the right places. Twice I ended up stopping before my planned stop because of personal need but no matter. Plug in for 10 to 15 mins, do what I need to do then go. Despite having an hour of range left with the unplanned stop, the SOC was still low enough that most of my short session was over 70 KW. Faster is always better but there comes a point where faster doesn't make life more convenient.

Now, we can all dream up scenarios and a million different "what if?" but no need. It would be wasted on me.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2467
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:38 pm

My 2 cents are that I would prefer 10 $10k 50KW chargers on the highway vs. 1 $150k 300KW charger. For most trips the charging time difference wouldn't matter.

For those interested, finally made a graph of my SoH(s) Blue is SV+ and red is S+. It was a few months before I started measuring the SV+ purchase in June 2019.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nPxzki ... p=drivesdk
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

cwerdna
Posts: 11703
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:38 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:38 pm
My 2 cents are that I would prefer 10 $10k 50KW chargers on the highway vs. 1 $150k 300KW charger.
Where are you getting the $10K figure for a 50 kW charger? That might be not enough to cover the unit itself and definitely is nowhere near enough to cover hardware + installation.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:37 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm
Can't say I was ever happy about 50 KW charging or 125 amps, but 200 amp charging was a significant difference.
Wait till you experience 400 Amps. 200 Amps will feel like a dog and 125 Amps will elicit a disgruntled laugh.

My Tesla Model 3 peaks at 600 - 700 Amps at the new V3 Superchargers but I have not used any yet. And since they taper faster than just cruising at 400 Amps up to 60 - 70% SoC the road tripping difference may not be enough to particularly care about the difference.

My version of no-compromise long trip driving is to stop for 10-15 minutes every 2-3 hours of driving at 70 - 75 mph on long trips. That type of routine is not in the realm of possible for passive battery EVs since it only starts to be possible at 180 kW average charging.
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15450
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:46 am

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:37 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm
Can't say I was ever happy about 50 KW charging or 125 amps, but 200 amp charging was a significant difference.
Wait till you experience 400 Amps. 200 Amps will feel like a dog and 125 Amps will elicit a disgruntled laugh.

My Tesla Model 3 peaks at 600 - 700 Amps at the new V3 Superchargers but I have not used any yet. And since they taper faster than just cruising at 400 Amps up to 60 - 70% the road tripping difference may not be enough to particularly care about the difference.

I like to stop for 10-15 minutes every 2-3 hours of driving at 70 - 75 mph on long trips. That type of routine is not in the realm of possible for passive battery EVs since it only starts to be possible at 180 kW average charging.
As I mentioned, faster is always better but there comes a point where it simply doesn't matter. Maybe I haven't taken a long enough trip to care yet. Lake Tahoe was supposed to be that trip but it was derailed. Again, I am not going to sacrifice comfort and safety to be able to crow about charging speed. In many cases (all of mine to this point) 200 amp charging has been more than enough.

TBH; add 400 miles of range and I will never need faster charging.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2467
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:44 am

I have seen some Chinese units for 6K...no clue as to costs to route, permit, and set up connectivity to the power.

https://m.alibaba.com/product/160014463 ... v.html?s=p

It feels like the 200 amp stations are now commodity given their proliferation.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2467
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:28 am

Sage

I might be careful with the V3 super chargers and the 220KW+ charging. There is some evidence that 3c+ DC charging still hurts this gen of the Lith-ion batteries.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... t_chargers
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

SageBrush
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Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:21 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:28 am
Sage
I might be careful with the V3 super chargers and the 220KW+ charging. There is some evidence that 3c+ DC charging still hurts this gen of the Lith-ion batteries.
I think it is fair to say that 1C damages the battery. I say that based on the continuing nerfing of charging rates by Tesla after some cumulative number of FC episodes *including* CHAdeMO.

To think otherwise is naive. HOWEVER, lots of variables are in play and the amount of damage is small per charge event. So it ends up being a trade-off. I do not FC unless I have a good reason; I avoid FC to a high SoC, and I do not FC to save a few dollars at a free station. Of particular concern for the LEAF is FC at cold battery packs and the temptation to FC at free NCTC.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2467
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:53 pm

Guilty here in that count, but only for a few more months. Thanksfully the evgo stations are also more like .75C on a 62kWh battery.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15450
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: The 62kWh Battery Topic

Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:52 am

Would be nice to have definitive info. I have decided I will only DC the bottom 2/3rds of the pack or 30 mins or to 100ºF on a normal basis. So who knows? I know that even in Summer, with pack temps in the low 70's, a 30 min charge on a 125 amp machine barely gets me into the low to mid 80's.

Hopefully this Summer's travel plans will happen so I can see some insight. At least the pack will be "broken in"
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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