danrjones
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: 2020 SV Plus rapidgate advice?

Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:57 pm

Triggerhappy007 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:53 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:25 pm

how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
OP said he paid $46k, the financed amount. He wasn't able to claim the full $7,500 tax credit. Sounds like he overpaid for the car or got a really bad interest rate and didn't do his research before buying a Leaf over a Tesla.
I also wonder if some people don't actually use the tax credit to offset the cost of the car.

I knew how much my tax credits and rebates were going to be, so I borrowed that much from myself and used it as the down payment, effectively lowering the cost of the car. I wouldn't be surprised if a few people end up financing the full cost and when they do get the tax credit, spend it on other things. They are welcome to do that, but the resale value of these have (I think) priced in the tax credits. So if you do not use the tax credit to lower the cost of the car, indeed you could end up VERY upside down in your loan.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15298
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2020 SV Plus rapidgate advice?

Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:18 pm

Triggerhappy007 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:53 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:25 pm

how about some numbers so "we" can decide for ourselves?

As far as selling in AZ, we have someone with a Plus and he seems to be doing fine living in Phoenix.
OP said he paid $46k, the financed amount. He wasn't able to claim the full $7,500 tax credit. Sounds like he overpaid for the car or got a really bad interest rate and didn't do his research before buying a Leaf over a Tesla.
Ok, so the only one to pay MSRP for a LEAF in the past 7 years? Yeah, anything is possible. Interesting the car after 5 months is only worth what? 20, $21K?

Well, at that price, at least he won't have a problem selling it...
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2748
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2020 SV Plus rapidgate advice?

Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:53 pm

BrOtis wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:38 am
GerryAZ wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:23 am
BrOtis wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:48 pm
I recently purchased a 2020 Nissan Leaf SV plus and quickly realized the mistake I had made. I live in Arizona and at the time of purchase I had no idea what passive cooling was and the sales person certainly had no clue about anything involving the car. I knew more than he did.

Had I realized that the battery would suffer such harsh throttling about 90% of the year in Arizona due to the heat, I’d have bought an EV with an active cooling system. I suppose I’m fault here for not doing the proper amount of research but it feels like I got taken for a fool. Please don’t make me feel anymore stupid than I already do.

I could have gotten myself a model 3 for what I paid. And to make matters worse, my cars value somehow depreciated almost 25k in less than 5 months. It has less than 6k miles on it and is in immaculate condition. I know depreciation happens but more than half of what was financed in less than half a year?! How is this legal? That was a real kick In the pants. So I can’t get rid of the car because I’m not rich and I can’t afford to just take on 20k or more in negative equity.

At this point I’m desperate for some sort of help. I think Nissan should not be allowed to sell this car in this state honestly. Does anyone know of anything that will help me?

I tried going to Nissan and they basically told me sorry but you’re out of luck. Apparently the firmware update that help this issue isn’t available for the 2020 model for some unknown reason.

Is there anything I can do to help this? Could I buy a different battery pack with active cooling? Could I pay some custom EV shop to build something? I love the car other than the rapidgate issue. Please don’t respond with snarky comments about how I need to get a different car. I would if I could.
Please explain your real issue with "rapid gate". With 6k miles in 5 months, your monthly mileage is less than mine and I have no issue charging my 2019 and had no issue charging my previous LEAFs. My car has only 9 DCQCs in almost 25k miles because it is much cheaper to charge at home. If you cannot charge at home and are dependent upon DCQC, then a Tesla would have been a better choice with their proprietary charging network. I used a DCQC on Sunday and there was no charge throttling issue--charge rate started at 43 kW, increased to 45 kW, and tapered to 35 kW just before the EVgo charger stopped after 46 minutes (I wish they would keep charging instead of automatically stopping after either 30 or 45 minutes). The SOC (state of charge) was 21% before charging and 81% after the EVgo charger stopped. During previous DCQC sessions I have seen EVgo chargers cut back to 18 kW after 15 minutes (probably to avoid excessive 15-minute power demand charges which are triggered above 20 kW), but that is not the fault of the car.

I am not sure how you are determining depreciation, but EV's that qualify for the Federal $7,500 tax credit do take a large depreciation hit as soon as you drive off the lot because a new one qualifies for the credit while a used one does not even if the original purchaser is not able to use the credit.

There are no alternative battery packs available (plus you would lose the Nissan 8-year, 100,000-mile battery warranty, 5-year, 60,000-mile EV system and powertrain warranty, and 3-year, 36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty if you modify the car) and the costs for modifications, if available, would exceed the losses you would incur by just selling the car.

Personally, I am glad that Nissan sells EV's in Arizona because the LEAF fits my daily driver needs very well.

So daily use isn’t an issue. But I have friends that I would like to visit in San Diego. And in Vegas. I was assured this wouldn’t be an issue with the Leaf and to be fair, I can drive there it just takes quadruple the amount of time I thought it would. I tried to go from Phoenix to San Diego in it twice, once when it was super hot out and once recently. I assumed the first time I went it took so long due to the heat outside. It took 14 hours. The second time I thought I wouldn’t have this issue. Still took me 12 and half hours. And I never went over 65 mph. Kept on eco too. And going to Vegas isn’t possible at all. If it is then I’m not aware of how. I’m angry with myself for making the mistake of not fully understanding this car before buying. That might have come off in my tone and that’s my bad for sure.

When I purchased the car, KBB said what I was paying for a new leaf was accurate. But now, if I check KBB it says it’s only worth have of what I paid. After taxes and fees it came out to right at 46k amount financed. They offered me 18k for it. Even if you account for the 7500 dollar tax credit, which makes no sense to me because you can’t even claim all of it if you don’t have enough liability, that’s still about 20k of upside negative equity. Don’t get wrong I know that a cars value depreciates the moment you drive it off the lot. I’ve bought several new cars and that’s usually about a 5k depreciation within the first year. That’s about average according to every person I know. And even the highest I’ve seen was 10k in a year. 20 in 5 months? Come on. You have to admit that’s not normal.
As a fellow AZ Leaf Plus owner, I will reply to your specific issues as well as some of the comments from others:

Don't beat yourself up over paying close to MSRP--there are not a lot of LEAF Plus models on dealer lots in AZ so there is not as much incentive for dealers to negotiate compared to other regions where there is much more competition. When I purchased mine in 2019, I had to order it to get the options I wanted. My dealer's search came up with 3 in the western USA which were equipped the way I wanted so I knew it would be difficult to negotiate significant savings below MSRP. I was able to negotiate some discount since I was purchasing my third LEAF from the same dealer and salesman. I also took advantage of Nissan incentives for down payment and low interest financing which combined with the $7,500 tax credit and good trade-in allowance to make the transaction reasonable. If one considers "average" depreciation for cars to be $5,000 in the first year, then LEAF depreciation would be $5,000 (average new car depreciation) + $7,500 (Federal tax credit) = $12,500 (total expected first year depreciation). Your actual depreciation will probably not be much different after a full year or 18 months as you are quoting for 6 months. The market considers the full $7,500 tax credit in used car pricing whether or not the original owner was able to take full advantage of that credit.

I am sorry your dealer misled you regarding long trips. I know the salesman and dealer I purchased all three of my LEAFs from would not recommend frequent trips to San Diego or Las Vegas (salesman drove a 2011 LEAF as personal vehicle when they first became available). As others have already suggested, enjoy your car for local driving and rent or borrow a suitable vehicle for occasional out of town trips. I had a trip planned to Las Vegas in January 2020 and my SUV was temporarily out of service. I considered taking my motorcycle, but was not comfortable with the weather forecast (rain and cold OK--possible snow not acceptable) so I rented a car for the weekend. It would be possible to drive a 62 kWh LEAF to Las Vegas by leaving the north side of Phoenix with a full charge and going through Flagstaff--stopping at every DCQC along I-17 and I-40 would get you to Kingman. There is at least one public L2 charging station in Kingman and a few hours there would yield enough charge to make it to the next DCQC in Henderson. The route through Flagstaff is over 100 miles further than the most direct route (US 93 through Wickenburg) and the limited number of charging stations means one could be stranded or delayed if a charging station was out of service so it would only be feasible if there were a need to get the car up there for an extended stay. Of course, the trip would be easy with a Tesla because there is a proprietary super charger station in Kingman.

Others have claimed that you can minimize battery heating by driving slower. My experience is that normal highway speed driving (say 75 mi/hr) does not produce significantly more heat than slow speeds because there is good air flow around the battery at highway speeds. I see battery temperatures increase when I slow down and drive in city stop/go traffic after highway driving because there is less air flow and more heat absorbed from the hot pavement at slow speeds. Since slower driving is more efficient due to less aerodynamic drag, lower average speeds will extend range and reduce charging times a little on long trips so the recommendations to drive slower do have some merit.

It is too soon to know how much long-term battery deterioration to expect in our climate, but my car has been doing OK. There are several ways to measure/express loss of battery capacity and my capacity loss has been minimal after 25k miles and 17 months of use no matter how it is measured. My battery still has about 95% of its original capacity in spite of the extremely hot summer last year.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

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