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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:09 pm
by pgrovetom
I was responding to your particular statement.


Which statement was that? Is there something I said you don't like?

BTW, most of the initial Leaf buyers are likely to be EV Project people ...
Maybe so but does that have something to do with my concerns about what Nissan told me? Maybe you could call Nissan and see what they say to you? I was hoping somebody who actually spoke with Nissan, like me 3 times and AV would comment on what they were told and not speculate about marginally related things.
Anyway, as LEAFer posted, ECOtality will announce their EVSE prices in July. So, they will be available to everyone ...
How do you know that plus do you have any idea about what their prices will be and or their installation policy? I've installed a number of 220V appliances like a stove top and been through the county building permit and NEC code inspection without any problems. I noticed in the San Diego Infrastructure document they refer to the 40A breaker, THHN wire and a 40A disconnect switch between the EVSE and sub-panel. Do you know if ECOtality will have an installation policy or leave it up to the particular county/city jurisdiction for code compliance?

It would just be nice to save $1000 if possible. I'm not sure why this is controversial?

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:19 pm
by LEAFer
ECOTality did not mention an install policy on the phone (see "San Diego Leaf Fanatics!" thread). And despite us specifically discussing the LEAF, Paul did not mention or deny or confirm any exclusivity associated between LEAF and AV, but then again, he's interested in the opposite and/or also may be unaware. Naturally this still does not allay any of our fears (induced by Nissan's FUD campaign) about Nissan's verbally uttered exclusivity requirement (can only use AV EVSE).

pgrovetom has a point ... but we've discussed it to death. Nissan should not legally be able to force us to use AV, nor should they do so from a moral or good customer service perspective. The same holds for AV. But the two have a partnership they are protective of, and AV's business plan and bottom line calculation (profit target) may require a certain volume of units.

By end of July we'll know pricing on ECOTality's (eTec's) EVSE's. We'll also have better data from the AV Home Assessents. At that point we can make better decisions. ( For example, sign a waiver with Nissan to commit to "trickle charging" only, but install an ECOTality (or whoever's) EVSE anyway :twisted: )

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:56 am
by mxp
LEAFer wrote:ECOTality did not mention an install policy on the phone (see "San Diego Leaf Fanatics!" thread). And despite us specifically discussing the LEAF, Paul did not mention or deny or confirm any exclusivity associated between LEAF and AV, but then again, he's interested in the opposite and/or also may be unaware. Naturally this still does not allay any of our fears (induced by Nissan's FUD campaign) about Nissan's verbally uttered exclusivity requirement (can only use AV EVSE).

pgrovetom has a point ... but we've discussed it to death. Nissan should not legally be able to force us to use AV, nor should they do so from a moral or good customer service perspective. The same holds for AV. But the two have a partnership they are protective of, and AV's business plan and bottom line calculation (profit target) may require a certain volume of units.

By end of July we'll know pricing on ECOTality's (eTec's) EVSE's. We'll also have better data from the AV Home Assessents. At that point we can make better decisions. ( For example, sign a waiver with Nissan to commit to "trickle charging" only, but install an ECOTality (or whoever's) EVSE anyway :twisted: )
Hello Leafer,
I cross read other threads, but it still not clear to me about Nissan's waiver. I think initially, I do plan to purchase a Leaf but will not install the Nissan EVSE (via AV). What kind of waiver must I sign? Does it forfeit the warranty of my Leaf?

Many thanks!

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:24 am
by LEAFer
mxp wrote:Hello Leafer,
I cross read other threads, but it still not clear to me about Nissan's waiver. I think initially, I do plan to purchase a Leaf but will not install the Nissan EVSE (via AV). What kind of waiver must I sign? Does it forfeit the warranty of my Leaf?

Many thanks!
I don't know about the contents of the waiver, not even sure a waiver exists. But I also have heard rumors of a possible waiver. However, I can't imagine a waiver being legal in the sense that it waives the warranty. This "waiver" or whatever it might get called, is more likely a "disclaimer", and could be constructed in the form of an admission on the part of the vehicle owner that trickle charging is extremely slow and will limit the usefulness of the vehicle, and that Nissan is not liable for any consequences of such limitations and (getting paranoid here) that Owner may not make disparaging comments in any way/shape/form or media ... regarding such limitations under penalty of being sued ??? :roll:
So ... we'll have to wait a little to find out what Nissan's up to. I'm sure they will highly discourage NOT installing a 240V EVSE.

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:11 am
by evnow
mxp wrote:I cross read other threads, but it still not clear to me about Nissan's waiver. I think initially, I do plan to purchase a Leaf but will not install the Nissan EVSE (via AV). What kind of waiver must I sign? Does it forfeit the warranty of my Leaf?
Ofcourse it can;t forfeit warranty. Nissan uses J-1772 which mandates that any other J-1772 certified charger should work. That is the sole idea about standards.

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:56 am
by LEAFer
evnow wrote:
mxp wrote:I cross read other threads, but it still not clear to me about Nissan's waiver. I think initially, I do plan to purchase a Leaf but will not install the Nissan EVSE (via AV). What kind of waiver must I sign? Does it forfeit the warranty of my Leaf?
Ofcourse it can;t forfeit warranty. Nissan uses J-1772 which mandates that any other J-1772 certified charger should work. That is the sole idea about standards.
The waiver we are talking about here is not the waiver (if one exists) for using someone else's EVSE, but using no EVSE at all (at first -- and as far as Nissan is concerned), i.e. "trickle charging" only.

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:11 am
by evnow
LEAFer wrote:The waiver we are talking about here is not the waiver (if one exists) for using someone else's EVSE, but using no EVSE at all (at first -- and as far as Nissan is concerned), i.e. "trickle charging" only.
Yes - but that may have something about other EVSEs too.

BTW, the trickle charging will be done using EVSE - albeit a 110V one which Nissan supplies. So, if the waiver just covers this, it would be something about how long the charging will take ...

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:24 am
by LEAFer
evnow wrote:
LEAFer wrote:The waiver we are talking about here is not the waiver (if one exists) for using someone else's EVSE, but using no EVSE at all (at first -- and as far as Nissan is concerned), i.e. "trickle charging" only.
Yes - but that may have something about other EVSEs too.

BTW, the trickle charging will be done using EVSE - albeit a 110V one which Nissan supplies. So, if the waiver just covers this, it would be something about how long the charging will take ...
Sorry ... you're right. EVSE still needed for 120V. So scrap my "using no EVSE at all" phrase, and substitute "using Nissan's included EVSE".

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:17 pm
by AndyH
pgrovetom wrote:
By the way. This Chargepoint unit is a Commercial Networked Station, not one intended for a garage. I have yet to see any of the low cost garage EVSE's claim compatibility with the Leaf as yet. I'm sure they will but early Leaf adopters as yet can only use the Aerovironment unit. If you read my post about the San Diego Infrastructure document, they indicate a $780 unit price for the EVSE. The rest of the $2200 is labor and wiring material costs.
Here's another data point for you. Coulomb is supplying EVSE equipment to both the ChargePoint America program (for the Volt PHEV and Ford/Smart EVs) and the EV Project (for the Leaf and Volt PHEV). The DOE is funding free home EVSE installations for owners of the Volt PHEV, Ford Transit and Focus EVs, and Smart ForTwo EV via ChargePoint America program.

http://chargepointamerica.com/faq-drivers.php
What criteria will determine who receives a free home charging stations?
Any purchaser of a program electric vehicle (the Chevrolet Volt, the Ford Transit Connect and Ford Focus Electric, or the smart fortwo electric drive), whose home is located within one of the nine target regions, will be eligible to receive a home charging station at no cost. Homes must be within one of these metro/city areas: Austin, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, Sacramento, San Jose/San Francisco Bay Area, Bellevue/Redmond, Washington DC, Southern Michigan from Grand Rapids to Lansing to Ann Arbor to Detroit. Please ask your dealer for more information about the ChargePoint America program when you purchase a new electric vehicle.
We already know from the press release that the Coulomb units are Leaf compatible. In addition, we now also know that:
Do the ChargePoint charging stations work with any electric vehicle?
The ChargePoint Networked Charging Stations will work with any electric vehicle on the market. There is an industry standard for Level II charging: the SAE J1772™ connector that all vehicles on the market will use. Even for older electric vehicles, charging at ChargePoint stations is still possible. So if you’re planning to own one of the ChargePoint America program vehicles (the Chevrolet Volt, the Ford Transit Connect and Ford Focus Electric, or the smart fortwo electric drive), you will be able to charge at any ChargePoint stations and utilize all the functions of the network.
I hope that helps. I absolutely HATE to NOT KNOW! And fear will cripple a person faster than an oil rig explosion. I hope I've presented you with enough info now so that you can see thru first level support tech's at either Nissan or AV when they mistakenly suggest that the sky is not blue. ;) (Or that someone else's J1772 EVSE 'might not work' with the Leaf.)

Andy

Gack...I also hate bad info. Thanks LEAFer!

Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:52 pm
by LEAFer
AndyH wrote:Here's another data point for you. Coulomb is to the ChargePoint America program as AeroVironment is to the Leaf. The DOE is funding free home EVSE installations for owners of the Volt PHEV, Ford Transit and Focus EVs, and Smart ForTwo EV.

Andy
Shouldn't that be ...
a] Coulomb is to the ChargePoint America program as ECOTality is to AeroVironment.; *AND*/*OR*
b] ChargePoint America is to the {Volt/Ford/Smart} as AeroVironment is to the LEAF.;

*OR* do I misunderstand something of the partnerships ?