SanDust
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:16 am

evnow wrote:This is not NMC. They are using Si-C anode and High Density Manganese Rich cathod. They get good price by not using Cobalt which is expensive.
Envia most definitely is using NMC. They previously called it something like "lithium rich layered-layered composite cathode chemistry" but it's basically Argonne's NMC. http://energy.gov/articles/argonne-lab- ... cles-today" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (that's just the first one that popped up on a search you can find many others).

FYI NMC uses cobalt so sparingly that it has little or no affect on the cost of the cell. The big advantage for NMC is that for a given amount of material it can store more energy. Doubling the energy stored by the same amount of material halves the cost. Envia apparently has also tweaked the anode to complement the cathode, which isn't altogether surprising since the cathode sets the tone of the battery. Using silicon at the anode is not really a breakthrough -- LG Chem currently uses silicon on the anode for the Volt battery.

The interesting aspect of all this for Nissan is that it's not clear how it will get around the Argonne patents on its NMC technology. Time will tell, but if you listen to the press conference where Envia and Argonne discussed the issue it's apparent that Argonne is advancing very broad patent claims.

Just as a FYI I believe that GM started testing the Envia cell material about a year ago. By now it must have reached some conclusions about how viable the chemistry is, which may or may not explain the "news" we're seeing now. No idea if this would be good or bad.

Desertstraw
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:51 am

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02 ... y-density/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/


“We will be able to make smaller automotive packs that are also less heavy and much cheaper,” Atul Kapadia, chairman and chief executive of Envia, said in a telephone interview. “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

Mr. Kapadia continued: “What we have are not demonstrations, not experiments, but actual products. We could be in automotive production in a year and a half



“If it’s true, it’s a huge breakthrough, because the main problem for battery cars has been cost,” David Cole, chairman emeritus of the Center for Automotive Research, a nonprofit research group based in Michigan, said in a telephone interview. “Right now, the lithium-ion battery is about three times as expensive as it should be for reasonable commercialization. That kind of cost target is the holy grail, and once it’s achieved it’s game on.”

One of the reasons that I leased rather than bought a Leaf was in hopes of this.

Desertstraw
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:11 am

ARPA-E:

To compete in the market with gasoline-based vehicles, EVs must cost less and
drive farther. An EV that is cost-competitive with gasoline would require a battery with twice the energy storage of today’s state-
of-the-art Li-Ion battery at 30% of the cost.

Envia Claim:

 “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:02 am

still in the early stages and MUCH more information is needed here, but this does bring options to the table. sure a "300 mile" pack (200-240 real miles) would be a great option to keep the Leaf in the $35,000 range out of the reach of 70% of Americans but i actually see a "Tesla" like pricing with the "City Leaf" being $25,000 with a 100 mile pack the "Suburban Leaf" with the 200 mile pack at $30,000 and the "Weekend Leaf" with the 300 mile pack.

fact of the matter; better battery technology is not likely to get us more range. the Leaf is too expensive and Nissan knows it. they know that 30-40 more miles is really where they need to be, but the cost is simply too much. if batteries get better, expect the price of the car to go down significantly while the range goes up slightly.

I, for one, can only hope that Nissan offers different range packs (i personally dont think they will)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Desertstraw
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:27 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:still in the early stages and MUCH more information is needed here, but this does bring options to the table. sure a "300 mile" pack (200-240 real miles) would be a great option to keep the Leaf in the $35,000 range out of the reach of 70% of Americans but i actually see a "Tesla" like pricing with the "City Leaf" being $25,000 with a 100 mile pack the "Suburban Leaf" with the 200 mile pack at $30,000 and the "Weekend Leaf" with the 300 mile pack.

fact of the matter; better battery technology is not likely to get us more range. the Leaf is too expensive and Nissan knows it. they know that 30-40 more miles is really where they need to be, but the cost is simply too much. if batteries get better, expect the price of the car to go down significantly while the range goes up slightly.

I, for one, can only hope that Nissan offers different range packs (i personally dont think they will)
"Silicon Valley start-up called Envia Systems says it has a lithium-ion battery prototype that within three years could power 300 mile-per-charge electric cars that cost between $25,000-$30,000."

edatoakrun
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:43 am

Desertstraw wrote:http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02 ... y-density/
envia-claims-breakthrough-in-lithium-ion-battery-cost-and-energy-density/


“We will be able to make smaller automotive packs that are also less heavy and much cheaper,” Atul Kapadia, chairman and chief executive of Envia, said in a telephone interview. “The cost of cells will be less than half — perhaps 45 percent — of cells today, and the energy density will be almost three times greater than conventional automotive cells.”

Mr. Kapadia continued: “What we have are not demonstrations, not experiments, but actual products. We could be in automotive production in a year and a half...

One of the reasons that I leased rather than bought a Leaf was in hopes of this.
Do you own or lease, an ICEV?

As soon as BEVs with batteries at close to these costs and energy densities are widely available, the resale prices for ICEVs will collapse.

Rapid battery improvement poses a far greater depreciation risk to owners of gasoline fueled vehicles, than to LEAF owners, IMO.
no condition is permanent

baumgrenze
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread - Envia

Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:26 pm

I'd like to draw readers attention to this blog and its associated comments:

http://www.openthefuture.com/2012/02/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps there is already a discussion in another forum thread (searching is no longer a trivial process) but I believe it would be interesting to explore the battery energy density required to match an ICE vehicle, with allowances for the relative weights of an ICE/transmission/with 1/2 tank of fuel vs that of an electric motor and its required battery in terms of passenger miles deliverable. As someone who drove an Isuzu P'up diesel, I know from experience that diesel engines, while more fuel efficient, are also heavier, just in case someone wants to include modern diesels in the calculation.

Clearly a lot of progress has been made since early adopters attempted the use of lead/acid batteries in automobiles. How much more progress needs to be made?
Thanks,

baumgrenze

2012 Glacier Pearl

SanDust
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:34 pm

Keep in mind that GM, which invested in Envia a year ago, has said the Argonne/Envia cathode material increase in capacity "is more than single digit" (something like that). That's significant but not in the 100% range. The bright side is that anything near 300 kWh/kg is probably good enough. At that energy density the battery becomes less important than the lack or high cost of "home" charging.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:41 pm

i think that batteries will never get beyond what can be charged at home overnight.

so if 6.6 Kw charging is common we are looking at perhaps a 60 Kw battery recharged from empty in about 10 hours. which can take us nominally 200 miles. that will be it.

of course there will be the "high end" crowd who already has greater options for the price such as the ability to use two 20 Kw chargers simultaneously to charge a larger pack yada yada...

but then again they tend to live in 12,000 sq ft homes too. which is just as ludicrous in my opinion
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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DaveEV
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:32 pm

SanDust wrote:Keep in mind that GM, which invested in Envia a year ago, has said the Argonne/Envia cathode material increase in capacity "is more than single digit" (something like that). That's significant but not in the 100% range.
The cathode is only part of the equation to producing a high energy density battery.

Envia apparently has been hard at work on the rest of it in conjunction with the Argonne tech.

Envia Systems announcement may herald the first wave of DOE-supported commercial high energy density Li-ion cells with Si-C anodes
SanDust wrote:The bright side is that anything near 300 kWh/kg is probably good enough. At that energy density the battery becomes less important than the lack or high cost of "home" charging.
The largest factor will be cost. If they can cut cost in half and reach 300 Wh/kg (kWh would be dreaming. ;)) that would double the LEAFs battery back capacity at the same cost.

A LEAF with 150 mi highway range would meet nearly everyone's needs with very few QC stations.

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