AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:08 pm

Sorry - it's still apples and oranges.

Obviously some devices can be plugged into 220/240 in the US, right? Dryers, stoves, arc welders, mig welders, etc.

What's different about the EVSE? The fact that the wee beasties are capable of up to 80A, perchance?

Shall we lobby for a completely parallel J1772 with a 20A or 40A limit to allow a plug? Or somehow convince the NEC that Grandma really is ok working with 240V/80A? Sorry - I'm not thinking either of these is going to happen anytime soon.

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:14 pm

The J1772 does not specify hard-wired or plugin, right?

So, no need to change that.

The NEC currently allows 240v plugin, right?

So, we just need somebody to make the "apple", right?
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:16 pm

What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:39 pm

An EVSE left plugged in for months at a time, vs. a high-power, pluggable room Air Conditioner? Or, an RV traveling from park to park? Or whatever.
Does the comparison even matter?

It could be the biggest single load at a house. Or, one of several large loads.
Who cares?

Yes, EVs are different, but overly restrictive laws do not help it to become mainstream.

An expensive fixed-position EVSE is OK for some, but "disfunctional" for others.

Nobody is suggesting 80-amp uses.

Just a legal, flexible, plug-in L2 EVSE, please.
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:07 pm

You didn't answer the question.

One category:
Arc welder
MIG welder
Electric Stove
Electric dryer

(220V devices with plugs for $200, Alex)


Another category:
Electric water heaters
Electric air conditioning compressor
L2 EVSE
220V air compressors
Hot Tubs
Saunas

(220V devices without plugs for $500, please.)


[edit] had to add hot tubs and saunas[/edit]

Please help me understand the difference from a NEC perspective.
Last edited by AndyH on Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:23 pm

No real idea. Perhaps they were confused?

Looks to me like the L2 EVSE (at least versions up to 40 amps) is more like the things in the first group, and should be there.

What do you think?
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:32 pm

Oh the HORROR!

Seems that 120V hot tubs can use a plug, but folks with 240V hot tubs must hard wire theirs.

http://hssofmusiccity.com/faq/
Which is better, a 115-volt hot tub or a 220-volt hot tub?
Both hot tub voltages are good choices. A 115-volt hot tub does not need hard wiring and can be plugged directly into an outlet. Be aware that the heater will turn off when the jet pumps are running. A 220-volt hot tub does need hardwiring and a sub-panel. The heater and the jets can work simultaneously.
Gotta edit my list...

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:00 pm

AndyH wrote:What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?
Simple. Home builders are a (very) powerful lobby.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:18 pm

AndyH wrote:What's the difference between a stove, dryer, and arc welder on one hand, and a water heater and EVSE on the other? Why are they in two separate NEC categories?
I think you are asking why something must be plug-connected vs hard wired. The requirement for an appliance or piece of equipment to have a plug disconnect depends on whether it is line of sight from another disconnect. So a wall oven, range or cooktop has those big chunky 220v plugs, while the water heater in the garage can be hard wired because the service panel is in the garage too. A plug is not the only means of disconnect. The air handlers are hard wired but they have service disconnects built in. Condenser units have wall-mounted service disconnects.

Hard wired hot tubs have the same requirement. The service disconnect must be line of sight from the tub, but it has to be more than a 5' reach from the water's edge.

The EVSE mounted in a garage where the service panel is not also in the garage raises an interesting question. Perhaps they are exempted from the disconnect requirement but I doubt it. It's possible there is a disconnect built into the unit like air handlers. Or code may require an additional disconnect for those cases. Or maybe inspectors just won't catch that.
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AndyH
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:31 pm

garygid wrote:The J1772 does not specify hard-wired or plugin, right?
Incorrect. J1772 Jan 2010 clearly states that Level 1 can be connected via plug but Level 2 must be hard-wired to a 240V source.
Page 9 Table 1
Page 11
Page 12


This might be useful...

From J1772 Jan 2010 page 7 section 3.2 (Definitions)
3.2 AC Level 2 Charging
A method that uses dedicated AC EV/PHEV supply equipment in either private or public locations. The vehicle shall be fitted with an on-board charger capable of accepting energy from single phase alternating current (AC) electric vehicle supply equipment. The maximum power supplied for AC Level 2 charging shall confirm to the values in Table 1.
From Table 1 - CHARGE METHOD ELECTRICAL RATINGS (NORTH AMERICA)
Charge Method / Supply Voltage / Max Current / Branch Circuit Breaker Rating
AC Level 1 / 120V AC / 12A / 15A
AC Level 1 / 120V AC / 16A / 20A
AC Level 2 / 208-240VAC / less than or equal to 80A / Per NEC 625

Could it be that while we're allowed to connect our electric stoves with a plug, we're not allowed to connect 80A devices with a plug? Just guessing here... What's the max rating of a dryer plug, range plug, or 50A RV connector?

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