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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:45 pm

Table 1 says connect L2 according to NEC 625, which DOES (625.13) allow qualifying L2 to be plugin, indoors.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:13 pm

garygid wrote:Table 1 says connect L2 according to NEC 625, which DOES (625.13) allow qualifying L2 to be plugin, indoors.
Table 1's reference to NEC 625 is clearly labeled "Branch Circuit Breaker rating (Amps)". It's not giving a reference for WHY it's hardwired.

The 'fact of' a hardwire requirement is found throughout the J1772 spec.

The largest capacity RV connector I can find is 50A.

What's the possibility that something happens in the NEC between 50A and 80A?

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:30 pm

There is no L2 hardwire requirement in the J1772 ... that I can find.
Not in Table 1, page 9, or page 11 or 12.

Please, where do you think the hardwired requirement is?

I have a copy right here.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:23 pm

garygid wrote:There is no L2 hardwire requirement in the J1772 ... that I can find.
Not in Table 1, page 9, or page 11 or 12.

Please, where do you think the hardwired requirement is?

I have a copy right here.
Sigh.

If you have the spec in front of you, you can see on page 1 that the document is for EV and PHEV conductive charge couplers. It USES and IS LIMITED BY other codes and directives and CANNOT cross outside it's limits. The requirement for 220V hardwired connections for specified high-current devices is inherited from outside the 'world' of the J1772 spec. It's not a J1772 or EV problem as you can see in my list of equipment above.

The prereqs are clearly established on pages 4 thru 6 and include NEC 625 and Canadian Electrical Code Part 1, section 86.

Compare and contrast the images on pages 11 and 12, for starters. L1=plug, L2=wires to the 'electric supply'.

Page 7 - definitions of L1 and L2 charging. L1 "a method that allows an EV/PHEV to be connected to the most common grounded electrical receptacles...A cord and plug EVSE with a..." L2 is a "method that uses dedicated AC EV/PHEV supply equipment in either private or public locations..."

Want to have some fun? Follow the trail of UL requirements. UL2251 covers EV connectors - the 2002 version can be found here: http://www.dianyuan.com/blog/u/60/1197512841.pdf

Beyond that I cannot help you. Good hunting.

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:06 pm

Like I said, an appropriately designed Level 2 EVSE can be used plug-in indoors.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:10 pm

garygid wrote:Like I said, an appropriately designed Level 2 EVSE can be used plug-in indoors.
Can you provide a reference so that I may learn the limits of 'an appropriately designed Level 2 EVSE'?

It's not me you have to convince - it's the obvious morons at SAE, Nissan, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Smart, Benz, Amphenol, the EPRI, and others directly involved with J1772. Then there are the nitwits at Coulomb Tech, ShorePower, Clipper Creek, AV, etc. that are selling obviously defective units without connectors.

Again - this is not rocket science. IF they could sell a product with a cord why are they NOT?!

AV's unit is limited to 40A but no cord. Clipper Creek's L2 unit is limited to 20A but no cord. What do they know that we're :roll: apparently missing?

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I FOUND IT! L2 MUST Be Hardwired!

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:22 pm

Here's a paper from California that shows the development of EVSE safety requirements:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF
2.2 Safety is Foremost
Safety was and is the primary reason charging equipment and safety standards have progressed in the direction they have. Related to this is the issue of liability.

Some EV enthusiasts assert that existing plugs and receptacles, such as NEMA 14-50R or -30R, provide sufficient safety for an EV application. As far as we know, this claim is unsubstantiated by any independent testing. While RVs, clothes dryers, welders and so on use these receptacles, the duty cycle of these do not compare to that of EVs. With EVs, regular connection and disconnection of the vehicle to the charging equipment happens twice a day at a minimum (e.g., when leaving home in the morning and when returning in the evening). When public or workplace charging is used, this number is more.

Clothes dryers and welders on the other hand are typically plugged in when installed and are not unplugged until removed (e.g., once or twice over a span of years). Even portable welders are not moved with great daily frequencies. RVs on average are only temporarily used (e.g., during vacation periods each year). As such, they do not get plugged in and unplugged daily throughout the year.

California wants 35,000 EVs operating in California by 2003. This would equate to 25.6 million connections/disconnections per year. Potential for an accident to occur where someone inadvertently touches an energized plug that is partially inserted into a receptacle is greatly increased. Therefore, the connection method for EVs to the off-board equipment must be fool proof.
I found a briefing paper from BC, Canada that covers EV charging infrastructure. They compare/contrast US NEC and Canada Electric Code (CEC) requirements. They say that NEC is more restrictive than CEC.
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/int ... -Aug09.pdf It's dated July 2009 so it should be quoting the 2008 (current) US NEC.

The info they list for L1 specifies exactly which types of plugs and outlets are necessary. The info for L2 and L3 simply show 'grid' connection. Then there's this from page 56:
Level 1
Power Requirement: Dedicated branch circuit with NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R Receptacle.
Level 2
Power Requirement: Dedicated branch circuit hardwired to a permanently mounted
EVSE with the following specifications:
240VAC/Single Phase, 4-wire (2 Hot, GND, Neutral), 40Amp Breaker
Page 63:
Section 625.13 Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
Electric vehicle supply equipment rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 or
20 amperes
or part of a system identified and listed as suitable for the
purpose and meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29

shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug-connected. All other electric
vehicle supply equipment shall be permanently connected and fastened
in place.
This section has three phrases - L1, other approved systems that also meet other sections, and hard-wired. The green section is where we're getting hung-up - look - it says plug!
BUT - only if identified and listed as suitable for the purpose AND meeting requirements of these three other sections. Let's look at these...
Section 625.14 Rating:
Level 1. 125vac. This method, which allows broad access to charge an
EV, permits plugging into a common, grounded 125-volt electrical
receptacle (NEMA 5-15R or 5-20R) when cord-and-plug is approved.
Level 2. 240 VAC, 40 amp. electric vehicle supply equipment shall be
permanently connected and fastened in place.
NEC 625-14 is the limiting phrase. This is what forces commercial suppliers of approved L2 EVSE to ship them without a plug and requires that electricians hard-wire the devices when installing them, and will be used by the home insurance company to approve or deny a claim if the device burns the garage down.

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:38 pm

Why do you quote 625.14, when the green part talks about three sections, none of which are 625.14 ?
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:52 pm

LEAFer wrote:Why do you quote 625.14, when the green part talks about three sections, none of which are 625.14 ?
Because that was one of the NEC excerpts ETEC presented to Canadian regulators when showing why L2 was hardwired.

The 625.13 section gives a possibility of three options but the following section specifically kills one of the options for L2 40A connections. (No - my head hurts and I don't want to hypothesize about 240V/20A or 240V/80A connections!) Other sections specifically reinforce the L1/plug/socket/portable theme while the L2 and L3 are cold, hard, hardwired.

Sorry...21 years in the USAF and working with a number of other Gov't agencies gave me waaaay too much practice parsing '(slightly less than) skillfully written' regulations. ;)

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garygid
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:57 pm

Strange, my pdf copy of 625 on scanned pages from the 2008 NEC has a Rating section 625.14 ... but it does NOT contain the language quoted above. Level 2 is apparently limited to 32 amps, requiring at least a 40-amp breaker, but there is NO mention of hard-wired.

Most of this section 625.14 is "highlighted", probably indicating a change from previous versions of the NEC.

Is it possible your quote comes from something other than the 2008 NEC?
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