Is Nissan researching a gasoline based electricity generator

JasonT said:

I feel like I'm missing something here - if you want a gasoline range extender, why not just go with the Volt instead?

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Pay $5K extra and lug around an addition 600 lbs that I may never use?

And not be able to share the generator to boot.

I'd need a generator perhaps 6 times a year. Why should I want to have to have one all to myself? I'd *love* to be able to split the purchase and maintenance costs among many people.

DanCar said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

For a longer weekend trip wouldn't it be easier to just rent a regular car?

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I think many people, like myself have a personal attachment to their car. The rental process is a pain including the visual inspection. I would think picking up a trailer would be easier, or even easier if a few neighbors shared one.

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Renting a trailer would be as much of a hassle as renting a car, but proportionally more expensive because there are so few EVs that very few rental places would have them. The trailers themselves would be more expensive because the market is so small. Not every EV owner would want one, and there are so few EVs. And by the time there are enough EVs on the road to provide a market for trailers, there will be fast-charging stations along all the major routes, and only the minor roads would not have them, so there would still be only a tiny market for trailers, and they would be expensive and hard to find for rent.

As for sharing a trailer among several families, consider: Most people want to take their family vacation in summer during the school holidays. Such a collective of owners would certainly find themselves quarreling over who gets to use the trailer during the most popular holiday dates.

DanCar said:

Hopefully the OEM makes it easy to add one by having a power socket on the back, trailer hitch, and computer connection.

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I believe Nissan has said the Leaf is not capable of towing a trailer. At least, they are recommending against it, which means that if you damage the power train by towing a trailer (perhaps overheat something on a long uphill pull) you might void the warranty.

JasonT said:

Do I wish the Leaf had more range? Certainly. But I wouldn't dream of hitching a gas engine to it - I'm getting the Leaf to get away from a gas engine!

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My feelings exactly!!!

Most people want to be able to take road trips which exceed the limits of these early EVs. But most families own two cars and will not sell both to replace them with EVs immediately. Thus, unless you only own one car (a small minority of those families who could afford a Leaf anyway) you already have a car capable of those longer trips.

As I've said before, towing a stinky old generator behind a non-polluting car is a violation of art.

There's a story about a knife thrower in a circus. His wife was cheating on him, and he knew it, and she knew that he knew it. But she knew that he was incapable of hurting or killing her in the ring, not because he loved her, which he no longer did, but because it would be a violation of his art.

daniel said:

There's a story about a knife thrower in a circus. His wife was cheating on him, and he knew it, and she knew that he knew it. But she knew that he was incapable of hurting or killing her in the ring, not because he loved her, which he no longer did, but because it would be a violation of his art.

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http://www.pkmeco.com/seinfeld/yada.htm

"I wanted to talk to you about Dr. Whatley. I have a suspicion that he's converted to Judaism purely for the jokes."
"And this offends you as a Jewish person?"
"No, it offends me as a comedian."
- Jerry and Father Curtis, in "The Yada Yada"

daniel said:

Renting a trailer would be as much of a hassle as renting a car, but proportionally more expensive because there are so few EVs that very few rental places would have them. The trailers themselves would be more expensive because the market is so small.

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So you're saying that a mass-produced generator shoved inside an incredibly simple housing will cost as much as an entire car?

The Long Ranger was, what, $6.5k? Something like that. And they only made a handful.

Not every EV owner would want one, and there are so few EVs.

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Nissan's TN plant is designed to build 150k per year. That's Nissan alone. Just for the North American market.

And by the time there are enough EVs on the road to provide a market for trailers, there will be fast-charging stations along all the major routes

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30 minutes to 80% versus 5 minutes to full. You don't see the difference to the general public, when it comes to long trips? Don't get me wrong; *I* would find even charging at RV parks to be acceptable for most long trips But I'm definitely not "general public" in that regard.

In terms of making pure EVs acceptable to long-range driving:

1) Trailers come first.
2) Fast-enough rapid charge comes second.
3) Long enough range that neither matter any more comes third.

As for sharing a trailer among several families, consider: Most people want to take their family vacation in summer during the school holidays. Such a collective of owners would certainly find themselves quarreling over who gets to use the trailer during the most popular holiday dates.

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One could make the exact same argument about RV rental and airplane flights, and yet somehow they manage The reality is that even though some dates are more popular than others, there's still a very wide distribution of when people go places. Even on the busiest of days, only a small fraction of people who would ever use a trailer will want to use one.

I believe Nissan has said the Leaf is not capable of towing a trailer. At least, they are recommending against it, which means that if you damage the power train by towing a trailer (perhaps overheat something on a long uphill pull) you might void the warranty.

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The exact quote is:

Q: Can the Nissan LEAF tow a small boat or garden trailer?

A: At this point, we don’t recommend towing. Longer-term, we hope to provide options for specific needs like yours.

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Says nothing about warranties, and shows that they're actually looking into towing. Also, that's about towing "a small boat or garden trailer", which would probably be heavier than a genset trailer.

One more important thing.

Let us say I want to take a week's holiday in SanFrancisco, like we have done before. The route from Seattle, through highway 1/101 is scenic - almost a "must see". I'd like to go in my EV since I can use that as an EV in SFO. My total emissions using EV + generator would be less than if I rent a prius for my trip.

We have to decide what is the ultimate aim - EV for the sake of it or emission/oil use reduction.

30 minute charges aren't as good as renting a trailer because if you rent a trailer then only 1 person has to wait, but if you go the 30 minute charger route, then everyone in the car has to wait. So if you ask my wife whether she wants to wait or not, then obviously she will prefer the trailer.

Even more true because the 30 minute wait is multiplied by 3, versus stops for gas. So who wants to wait 1.5 hours when they don't have to?

If there are 4 people in the car then it is 1.5 hours multiplied by 4 versus 5 minutes multiplied by 4. Does 6 hours compare to 20 minutes?

I don't care if there are 30 minute chargers everywhere, I'd rather have a trailer.

Nissan, please, put in the hooks to make adding a trailer easy!

I'm not sure 30 minute charges work for longer trips. You would have to have a break nearly every 60-90 minutes depending on the speed for 30 minutes. Doesn't work in practice. Just to go from St Louis to Chicago, you would need 3 recharges.

30 minute charger is good for someone to drive to a place that is 5o to 80 or so miles away & come back - like one of the nearby ski resorts for us.

evnow said:

I'm not sure 30 minute charges work for longer trips. You would have to have a break nearly every 60-90 minutes depending on the speed for 30 minutes. Doesn't work in practice. Just to go from St Louis to Chicago, you would need 3 recharges.

30 minute charger is good for someone to drive to a place that is 5o to 80 or so miles away & come back - like one of the nearby ski resorts for us.

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You're absolutely right - with 100 mile range (and I'm guessing much less at freeway speeds), this won't work.

This is not the car to be going long trips on -- if you want long trips, I really think you should be looking elsewhere. Even if you can do a trailer hook up on the Leaf, I suspect the modding to try and get it to accept energy from a generator while on the move would be... pretty serious, if not impossible (I am not a car guy, so I am ready to admit I could be wrong on the difficulty of this). And if you can't get it to accept the energy while on the move, then you're still stuck with the waits.

DanCar said:

30 minute charges aren't as good as renting a trailer because if you rent a trailer then only 1 person has to wait, but if you go the 30 minute charger route, then everyone in the car has to wait.

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I don't understand this at all - why would one person have to wait instead of everyone in the car? Maybe I'm not getting your vision.

I completely admit, I just don't understand the whole push for this - I accept the limitations of this car, and embrace it. If I wanted to go cross-country, or even Tucson <-> Phoenix on a regular basis, I would not buy this car.

DanCar said:

30 minute charges aren't as good as renting a trailer because if you rent a trailer then only 1 person has to wait, but if you go the 30 minute charger route, then everyone in the car has to wait.

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I don't understand this at all - why would one person have to wait instead of everyone in the car? Maybe I'm not getting your vision.

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I rent the trailer with 300 mile range and fill it up. I have to wait. I go an pick up the passengers and head out. None of them have to wait for the refill.

I completely admit, I just don't understand the whole push for this - I accept the limitations of this car, and embrace it. If I wanted to go cross-country, or even Tucson <-> Phoenix on a regular basis, I would not buy this car.

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What if it is only a few times a year?

evnow said:

One more important thing.

Let us say I want to take a week's holiday in SanFrancisco, like we have done before. The route from Seattle, through highway 1/101 is scenic - almost a "must see". I'd like to go in my EV since I can use that as an EV in SFO. My total emissions using EV + generator would be less than if I rent a prius for my trip.

We have to decide what is the ultimate aim - EV for the sake of it or emission/oil use reduction.

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You are assuming that the genset is as efficient and as clean as a Prius. I strongly doubt this would be the case. The genset would have none of the technological sophistication of the Prius.

But my real question is this: Is an EV with a genset trailer really an EV at all? Or is it just a serial hybrid?

Bottom line for me: I just don't like gasoline, so I dislike the idea of trying to make an EV run on gasoline. I really don't think of the Leaf as the car for extended road trips, and given how bigger batteries are going to come on line, and fast charging is going to come on line (probably 10 to 15 minutes, rather than 30) I see the trailer as addressing a problem that is going to be with us only a few more years.

daniel said:

You are assuming that the genset is as efficient and as clean as a Prius. I strongly doubt this would be the case. The genset would have none of the technological sophistication of the Prius.

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That is because you are not looking at the full scenario. I'd use genset only during the trip (even there I'd try to charge at overnight stops and any fast charging during stop overs). Most importantly I'd use pure EV at my destination, SFO.

... I see the trailer as addressing a problem that is going to be with us only a few more years.

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True. It is an interim solution ...

These are all fun things to talk about, but in reference to the question posed by this thread "Is Nissan researching..." I hope the answer is "NO", at least to the extent whoever would be doing that research could be employed getting Leaf 1.0 to market, in particular to MY market. Plenty of time to think up improvements later. I think the PM's at Nissan are too smart to fall into the Aptera trap.

BTW I never thought to ask, do the windows on the Leaf roll down?

I really don't think of the Leaf as the car for extended road trips, and given how bigger batteries are going to come on line, and fast charging is going to come on line (probably 10 to 15 minutes, rather than 30) I see the trailer as addressing a problem that is going to be with us only a few more years.

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I strongly disagree. Rapid chargers cost many tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars each -- the higher the power, the more they cost. And they either need to be paired with some serious grid work or a big battery buffer. There just isn't that kind of funding out there for that. And vehicles just aren't being engineered for that kind of charge rate right now. And since the average car stays on the road about two decades...

DanCar said:

I rent the trailer with 300 mile range and fill it up. I have to wait. I go an pick up the passengers and head out. None of them have to wait for the refill.

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Ah, I see. I wasn't looking so far ahead (hacking of the software [assuming software is the only limitation], some sort of rewiring for this generator), and just figured you would still have to stop and charge, just with your own generator instead of a charging station. Anyone willing to go through all that - I commend them. I thought the people attempting plug-in mods to their Prius were impressive too - crazy, but impressive

DanCar said:

JasonT said:

If I wanted to go cross-country, or even Tucson <-> Phoenix on a regular basis, I would not buy this car.

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What if it is only a few times a year?

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I am in a two car household, and this car is only replacing one of them. However, even if I only had access to one car, I would first see if there are any friends that would swap cars for a day (and I'm guessing I would have no problem finding someone willing to do that). If that wasn't available for me when I wanted to take the trip I would go the rental option.

I agree with LTLFTcomposite - I hope that the answer to this thread's question is "No" as well. Nissan does not seem to be aiming to make this car the every-car for everyone. EV cars have a long time (if ever!) before they become that. If someone wants to attempt their own wacky mod to the Leaf, I saw more power to you - but I see no reason why Nissan should be involved in it.

I hope the answer is, "yes, as a for-profit option". For-profit options don't derail development; you can afford to sink new people into it if you're making money on the feature.

A genset on a trailer just has too many of issues from the standpoint of creating an idiot-proof consumer product. For starters you pretty much wouldn't be able to back up with such a short frame trailer. It would hang out in a parking space. There are laws about safety chains and lighting on such a trailer. What is the tongue weight? Could your wife or mother handle hooking it up? Does the tire pressure monitoring system monitor the tires on the trailer? What about the stability control? How does it affect the braking distance? High voltage cables running from the trailer to the back of the car? You bottom out pulling out of a driveway and the insulation is damaged?

With some hacking you could get it to work as hobbyist. As a product certified as safe by a lawsuit target like Nissan? Fuggedaboudit.

The genset trailer developed for the Toyota RAV4EV had "steerable" wheels, so that it tracked properly when backing up and wouldn't jack knife. If a connector was designed on the rear of the car, along with the correct trailer hitch, it would be perfeclty workable. All that being said, I think Nissan has no interest in pursing this, as the entire sales pitch for the Leaf is "No Gas", so adding gas to get more range is probably a deal breaker for them.

with all of that said, I would not rule out 3rd party aftermarket companies comming up with something, that would not surprise me at all... as far as Nissan goes, not a chance.

Taken from "darel the ev nut":
http://www.evnut.com/

"The Long Ranger was an AC Propulsion project (commissioned by Toyota) to build a generator trailer that would allow liquid-fueled high-speed travel in the Rav4EV. There were many obstacles to this project seeing the light of day - most of them bureaucratic. For most practical purposes, the project was a great success that never really saw the light of day before the Rav4EV program was terminated. A 500cc motorcycle engine is used, housed in a small, aerodynamic package. ~20kW DC output is sufficient for extended high-speed travel. The micro trailer incorporates intelligent "BackTracker" steering which automatically maintains trailer-to-vehicle alignment during backing to avoid jack-knifing. There is little question that this 350 pound trailer functioned as planned - sustaining freeways speeds for as long as the 9.5 gallon tank had gasoline. Amazingly, even with all the conversion losses added up, the gas mileage of this combo is comparable or BETTER than the pure gasoline version of the same vehicle. See a similar trailer behind the Tzero. The white papers."

350lb? Huh, lighter than I remembered. Neat.

evnow said:

I'd like to go in my EV since I can use that as an EV in SFO. My total emissions using EV + generator would be less than if I rent a prius for my trip.

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The long ranger used a motorcycle engine. Getting a small engine like this to run cleanly is very hard.

Scooters and motorcycles can pollute 90 times as much as SUVs.
http://ecomodder.com/blog/motorcycles-scooters-great-environment-wrong/

A solution I'd love to see to this would be the option to have your car loaded with you on a train, then you could ride the train down and drive your electric car locally.

Thanks!