Official California PG&E Thread

Hey all: Just got off the phone with PG&E trying to decide if I should change from advantageous (and no longer available) E-7 rates to the E-9A. Very helpful guy from PG&E, and it was immediately clear that it would be a bad move to switch rates -- especially since once you leave E-7, you can't go back. We've got a 3.3Kw solar system we put up back in 2005, thus the E-7 TOU rates. In any case, I was directed to this handy dandy rate comparison for all TOU rate schedules . . . here it is -- oops . . . sorry can't seem to figure out how to upload a file Try this page instead and cruise down to TOU rates:
http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC_TOU

I just learned about the E-9A vs the E-9B rate issue. Where I live, my baseline quantity is about 300 kWh. Use above the baseline quantity is charged at the higher tiers. I am now using about 350 kWh/month to charge the leaf, so all my other electricity use is at the higher tiers -- I now pay on average about 15 cents/kWh. This isn't too bad, but seems like they should bump up the baseline quantity by 300kWh when you switch to the EV TOU rate.

I'm thinking about the 2nd meter option which meters just the Leaf separately from the rest of the house. PG&E will ultimately need all the EV's on a separate meter so they generate credits to sell into the Low Carbon Fuel Standard credit market. Seems like they should at least pay for the meter instead of charging $250. So Cal Edison provides the 2nd meter for free (though not the install).

Any other PG&E ratepayers thinking about adding a 2nd meter?? Any advice??
Thanks,
Jenny

Not the full 100% new baseline you are looking for, but you do get a "discount" since tier 1 and tier 2 are the same rate.

True, but that won't help Jenny much since her tier 1 + tier 2 for E9-a will be only about 390 kWh/mo. That leaves not much more than 1 kWh/day for the whole house before she gets into the high prices.

It sounds as if the car is being driven 40-50 miles/day averaged over the month, or maybe about 60 miles/day as a commuter car. If my guesses are high, the first thing to look at is improving efficiency in how it is being driven. If my guesses aren't high, E9-b might be a good match for your needs, Jenny, even though it will be expensive to set up initially. Another option (though very expensive to set up initially in most cases) would be solar panels on the house. See threads like Solar Purchase vs Lease for ways to avoid the upfront costs.

Ray

gascant said:

idunk said:

Anybody who actually switched to E9B? What was the cost of installing the second meter? What was the exact installation procedure? Thanks!

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Nope--got several quotes to have the 2nd meter installed and they were running $3000+ So I decided to go E9A and tough it out until I stop commuting. A friend of mine did a 2nd meter install himself (using the same hardware I would have used) and it ended up costing him $1700 and a lot of grief with PG&E. The electrician (Robert from A1) who came to BayLEAFs gathering #2 at Boardwalk Nissan was recommending against E-9B. I think you were there, right?

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Gascant, do you mind sharing with me the contact details of the electrician (Robert from A1) ? You can just PM it to me if you don't mind sharing it. Thanks in advance.

Also, could you pls explain the "grief" with PG&E ? I am sensing that PG & E is discouraging end users from the 2nd meter option. I'd like to compare notes and establish some form of trend.

I really dislike what PG & E is attempting to do here....

mxp said:

gascant said:

idunk said:

Anybody who actually switched to E9B? What was the cost of installing the second meter? What was the exact installation procedure? Thanks!

Click to expand...

Nope--got several quotes to have the 2nd meter installed and they were running $3000+ So I decided to go E9A and tough it out until I stop commuting. A friend of mine did a 2nd meter install himself (using the same hardware I would have used) and it ended up costing him $1700 and a lot of grief with PG&E. The electrician (Robert from A1) who came to BayLEAFs gathering #2 at Boardwalk Nissan was recommending against E-9B. I think you were there, right?

Click to expand...

Gascant, do you minds sharing with me the contact details of the electrician (Robert from A1) ? You can just PM it to me if you can share it. Thanks in advance.

Also, could you pls explain the "grief" with PG&E ? I am sensing that PG & E is discouraging end users from the 2nd meter option. I'd like to compare notes and establish some form of trend.

I really dislike what PG & E is attempting to do here....

Click to expand...

PG&E is neither encouraging nor discouraging the second meter, or at least the person I dealt with wasn't. He just asked what I wanted to do and told me what needed to be done. I have sensed 0 pressure in any direction (E1, E9-A, E9-B). But maybe it was the specific person whom I dealt with or the fact that I haven't gone all the way, so maybe the grief comes afterwards.

I second that Robert is very much against the second meter (E9-B). I spoke to him and he said that it's very expensive and not worth it. I am still on E1 waiting to see my summer consumption (I am downloading my hourly usage every week) and then I will make a decision.

I got my first month of E9A bill--about $43 to go 1500 miles. Nearly all charging done at off-peak times. Not bad.

I spoke to 3 electricians about the 2nd meter and all of them somewhat steered towards discouraging me from installing the 2nd meter due to the extra amount of office time they would have to charge me to get the paperwork in order for PG&E to approve; the difficulty in coordinating with PG&E for final inspections; and the install itself.

The PG & E rep also attempted to discourage me so I really cannot understand why for the last 6 mths of research, everyone I spoke to is negative about the 2nd meter.

The PG & E rep is coming out to my property to perform a feasibility assessment tomorrow.

gascant said:

I got my first month of E9A bill--about $43 to go 1500 miles. Nearly all charging done at off-peak times. Not bad.

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I suppose you don't use much electricity betw 2pm - 9pm ?

What kills the E-9A option for me is I have a growing family that consumes electricity heavily from 5pm - 9pm. I need to stay on E-1.

mxp said:

I suppose you don't use much electricity betw 2pm - 9pm ?

What kills the E-9A option for me is I have a growing family that consumes electricity heavily from 5pm - 9pm. I need to stay on E-1.

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Keep in mind that Peak is only for half the year so E-9A can still cost less than E-1 when computed over a year. Of course it is difficult to calculate without having a history of hourly electricity usage of at least a year and an idea of how much one plans to drive the Leaf over the course of the coming year.

I m not sure if anybody get to use this excel form where you can input your usage and get comparison for E1( before and after the EV) , E9a and E9b.


http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls


The above spreadsheet provided to me by PGE project specialist when I asked for 2nd meter installation.

Thanks
Yogi

yogi said:

I'm not sure if anybody get to use this excel form where you can input your usage and get comparison for E1( before and after the EV) , E9a and E9b.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls

The above spreadsheet provided to me by PGE project specialist when I asked for 2nd meter installation.

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This spreadsheet is essentially worthless if you have a PhotoVoltaic System - your peak kWh usage under E9A could be NEGATIVE for 5 or 6 months of the year, creating "revenue" to offset your off-peak EV charging! Note: you can't actually make money, just reduce your bill towards zero.

I went with E9A since we have 3 kW of PV.

mxp said:

gascant said:

I got my first month of E9A bill--about $43 to go 1500 miles. Nearly all charging done at off-peak times. Not bad.

Click to expand...

I suppose you don't use much electricity betw 2pm - 9pm ?

What kills the E-9A option for me is I have a growing family that consumes electricity heavily from 5pm - 9pm. I need to stay on E-1.

Click to expand...

My wife likes the house at 78, so on hot days, we'll get AC starting up around 4PM. Can only imagine what it will be like this weekend! At least, most of the time it will be off-peak. We're just making a lifestyle adjustment--weekday laundry before Noon, dishwasher after Midnight. LEAF charging exclusively from 12:10 - 5:00 AM. For us, the 2nd meter might save $60/month if that, so it's a big investment to make for a small savings.

"PG&E’s Smart Grid Vision" has been released.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/shared/edusafety/electric/SmartGridDeploymentPlan2011_06-30-11.pdf

Quite a few references to EV's, but no evidence I can see (from a quick look of the 300 pages) that PG&E comprehends the huge opportunity it has in promoting the conversion of vehicles from petroleum fuels to electricity.

In particular, I have not yet found any reference in this report to public charging infrastructure. PG&E really doesn't seem to understand that the lack of public charging opportunities (and DC charging in particular) in its service area is now the primary limitation on EV sales, as many potential buyers cannot overcome the "Range Anxiety" FUD to understand that an BEV can be their primary vehicle.

Can a "dumb company" implement the "smart grid"?

Edit-IMO, most interesting part of the report is the chart p 116 (pdf p125) giving PG&E's projection of (HEVs/EVs/PEVs?-PG&E uses the terms interchangeably) in its service area:

Between ~220K and ~850K
PEVs by 2020
Middle projection: ~530K

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PG&E E9A TOU Hours Chart

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70485818@N00/5892748185/in/photostream/lightbox/

I assume you do realize you are showing the "summer" rates, May-October. There is no peak time the other half of the year, i.e. all the red hours turn yellow. The real problem I have with E9 is that my solar system peaks well before 1 PM in the summer, despite DST. (Like much of California, our city is laid out parallel to the valley, so "south" is really about 20 degrees east of true south, and that's the way my solar panels face.) I have the E6 rate, with peak starting at 1 PM, not 2 PM as with E9. That's an hour of prime generating time that PG&E would not be paying me peak rates for if I was on E9.

Ray

planet4ever said:

I assume you do realize you are showing the "summer" rates, May-October. There is no peak time the other half of the year, i.e. all the red hours turn yellow.

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I assume you know that we have 122 days till we need the Winter chart? :lol:

planet4ever said:

The real problem I have with E9 is that my solar system peaks well before 1 PM in the summer, despite DST. (Like much of California, our city is laid out parallel to the valley, so "south" is really about 20 degrees east of true south, and that's the way my solar panels face.) I have the E6 rate, with peak starting at 1 PM, not 2 PM as with E9. That's an hour of prime generating time that PG&E would not be paying me peak rates for if I was on E9.

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Good point, Ray; PV systems should favor a southwest orientation for TOU rates. Our older 1kW system (circa 2002), installed on the back roof of the house, faces Southeast, but ... our new 2 kW system, installed on the family room addition to the original house faces Southwest.

We're getting 1 kW or more from 10am-5pm, and our first E9A bill (which was only 7 days) shows:

TOU Period.....kWhr
* peak.............-16
* partial peak..-11
* off peak.........54
Net Billed kWh..27

Current Charge = $ -3.70

So I think for our two person + 1 dog family, E9A + PV + LEAF will work out fine.

But too bad PG&E (my former employer, BTW) can't provide us with a spreadsheet to let us be sure.

rclams said:

planet4ever said:

I assume you do realize you are showing the "summer" rates, May-October. There is no peak time the other half of the year, i.e. all the red hours turn yellow.

Click to expand...

I assume you know that we have 122 days till we need the Winter chart? :lol:

Click to expand...

Yes, I see your emoticon, but seriously, this is something people need to think about before they switch plans or get a solar system. The time of day differential is really nice for half the year (sell excess power to PG&E during the afternoon at 30 cents/kWh, buy it back for 5 cents/kWh after midnight) but for the other half of the year you only gain 5 cents/kWh.

Ray

planet4ever said:

Yes, I see your emoticon, but seriously, this is something people need to think about before they switch plans or get a solar system. The time of day differential is really nice for half the year (sell excess power to PG&E during the afternoon at 30 cents/kWh, buy it back for 5 cents/kWh after midnight) but for the other half of the year you only gain 5 cents/kWh.

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I think that PV has at least a 3% after-tax, ROI (not including the TOU arbitrage bonus). And right now that's hard to beat, as you know.

See for example http://www.thomaswlewis.com/?page_id=45 showing a simple payback of 9 years. With 20-25 year warrantees on panels, if someone owns their home and has the right exposure, I think its a no-brainer.

And E9A sweetens the pot. Considerably.

gascant said:

For us, the 2nd meter might save $60/month if that, so it's a big investment to make for a small savings.

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If you plan to get a second EV in the future, then the 2nd meter makes sense. You get the federal rebate now (if it is still available).